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LS 4 vs ASW 20



 
 
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  #21  
Old May 22nd 13, 09:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Steve Leonard[_2_]
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Posts: 924
Default LS 4 vs ASW 20

On Wednesday, May 22, 2013 1:26:19 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Keith & GK I'm sorry you feel so bad about your MF trailers at the time they were built 70s and 80s the Cobra bad spar fitting that let the wing fall to the floor and we was 1/2 the price, and they didn't have RO RO at the time as well Tom Stowers


Well, Tom, I have one of your trailers, and I LOVE it. Holds my Zuni 2, one man rigger, wing wheel, tail dolly, tow bar, two wing stands, wash bucket, a couple of lawn chairs, and has room for more. No spare tire mount that can break and drop the tire on the glider. Wing dollies that won't tip over. Stable scissors jack to raise and lower for raising and lowering the gear. Jacks to support the back end, tilt tongue so you don't have to disconnect from the car to get the glider out.

All trailers have their development issues. I suspect a lot of "bad" that is being given to Minden Fab is due to fixtures made by others that worked OK but could have been much better. By the time they got to mine (late 81 or early 82), they had things very well sorted out. If, the buyer did what was right and bought all of the Minden Fab gear. Who now would consider buying a Cobra trailer with no fixtures inside? Oh, wait. I am dealing with one of those right now. Having to make everything myself, as it is a one off machine I am fitting into a Cobra I had to make longer.

For those who hate Minden Fab trailers, I will gladly accept yours as a donation. Drop them off any time.

Steve Leonard
Wichita, KS
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  #22  
Old May 22nd 13, 09:43 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 267
Default LS 4 vs ASW 20

Minden Fabrication trailers "It's one of the poorest design I had ever seen"

If that's true you are a VERY lucky person!

My club has one of those Swiss made oval aluminium tube trailers containing a Twin Astir RG. The wings go in root first (good) but right wing on the left, left wing on the right, the wings have to be removed and replaced in a certain order as the root dollies, captive to a track, overlap each other, removing a wing involves pulling out a lock, pulling a cable to unlock the dolly, raising the wing tip and moving it to the center, having someone pull a lever to swing the mid-span support out of the way and then carrying the tip all the way out a few inches above the ground as a few inches too high or too low cause the wing to scrape (all bad). The fuselage goes in tail first and is supported by a frame which engages tracks in the trailer. This means that when you pull it out of the trailer the only thing keeping it from tipping over are the people holding it. The tail rides in a captive dolly (and it takes some finesse to get the tail out over the dolly without the tail tip hitting the trailer top) which sits on the ground and does a good job of trying to trip up everyone carrying the wings out.

Oh, we also have a Twin Acro in a trailer where the wings go in tip first on slings (meaning you have to carry the heaviest end of the wing the longest distance possible) and the glider is loaded/unloaded OVER THE TRAILER HITCH! Then there's the enclosed L-23 trailer where the wings load tip first right wing on the left, left wing on the right as well.

You have no idea how happy I was to see that the DG-505 we bought came with a Cobra (and no charge for DG tech support!)

As for the LS-4 vs. ASW-20: yes, definitely one or the other. Probably comes down to whether you feel you need and can handle the extra capabilities flaps give.

Back when Rolladen Schneider went belly up I recall that the type certificate, manufacture and tech support for the LS-4 went to AMS Flight (?) but they never seemed to do anything with it. Now that DG is offering support you'll have to pay for it but you will actually get it which removes the one concern I would have had about buying an LS-4.

So far I've had good support from Eastern Sailplane and Schleicher for my ship with no annual charge - a point in favor of a Schleicher there.
  #23  
Old May 23rd 13, 01:55 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Echo
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Default LS 4 vs ASW 20

On Sunday, May 19, 2013 8:12:01 PM UTC-5, Terry Pitts wrote:
I'm 6' tall and weight more than I'd like. Though I have no experience with the ASW20 to compare, I found the LS4 quite comfortable except for the time the seat was too far forward and my parachute too low...


I'm 6'5" and broad shouldered. Seat back out of my 20, chute on, astronaut foam...and I also have a hand-pump controlled inflatable lumbar cushion attached to my chute. I feel great after 5 hours in the 20. Flew a 27 a few months ago, definitely not as comfy.

Jordan
ASW20 E
  #24  
Old May 23rd 13, 04:35 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default LS 4 vs ASW 20

Erik, has good points.. I owned an Asw20 with winglets for 12 years. Flew the Ls4 a few times. Honestly, the LS4 handles better and is more stable, however the Asw20 still is a great handling ship. The 20, is much more versatile, and has better performance. The best part about the 20 is its short landing performance and glide path control. I landed the 20 in some hideous fields that the LS4 Would have ended up in kit form. A wingleted 20 definitely handles better. LS4 is a great ship regardless.


  #25  
Old January 19th 17, 03:37 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jacopo Romei
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Default LS 4 vs ASW 20

Your opinions please.

Some crowdsourced opinion he
http://www.gliderreview.com/comparin...-schneider-ls4
  #26  
Old January 19th 17, 08:51 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Papa3[_2_]
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Posts: 667
Default LS 4 vs ASW 20

On Thursday, January 19, 2017 at 10:37:34 AM UTC-5, Jacopo Romei wrote:
Your opinions please.


Some crowdsourced opinion he
http://www.gliderreview.com/comparin...-schneider-ls4


For what it's worth... the way you are assigning "class" is problematic. Club Class is just an overlay on top of the original FAI classes. So, the ASW-20 is 15 meter class and the LS4 is standard class. All LS4 models can also complete in IGC Club Class; some ASW-20 models can.



  #27  
Old January 20th 17, 04:24 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
George Haeh
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Posts: 168
Default LS 4 vs ASW 20

Both lovely gliders.

- on LS-4 annual support fee

- on ASW-20 manual elevator hookup on first model "A". Considerable
attrition because of this.

The flap limit speeds must be taken seriously on the 20, especially the "A"

model extreme landing flap.

The B and C models got those items fixed plus got a good disc brake.

Very good to hear that there's brake mods for the LS-4.

Both will come with 80s vintage trailer.

Some folks have managed to mix up spoiler and gear handle in the 20. Much

harder to do in the 4.

My old club got a complaint that there was no airspeed on the 4 - which
managed just fine on tow and landing. The fin pitot was taped over.

Similarly you don't want to forget mounting the pitot static probe on the
20.

As for Twin Astir trailers, you are not allowed to land out unless you have
at
least four strong fellas plus yourself available for designing.

The DG-1000 can be derigged with three when the local XC kamikaze gets
carried away with optimism.

  #28  
Old January 20th 17, 08:52 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce Hoult
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Default LS 4 vs ASW 20

On Friday, January 20, 2017 at 7:30:05 AM UTC+3, George Haeh wrote:
Both lovely gliders.

- on LS-4 annual support fee

- on ASW-20 manual elevator hookup on first model "A". Considerable
attrition because of this.

The flap limit speeds must be taken seriously on the 20, especially the "A"

model extreme landing flap.

The B and C models got those items fixed plus got a good disc brake.

Very good to hear that there's brake mods for the LS-4.

Both will come with 80s vintage trailer.

Some folks have managed to mix up spoiler and gear handle in the 20. Much

harder to do in the 4.

My old club got a complaint that there was no airspeed on the 4 - which
managed just fine on tow and landing. The fin pitot was taped over.

Similarly you don't want to forget mounting the pitot static probe on the
20.

As for Twin Astir trailers, you are not allowed to land out unless you have
at
least four strong fellas plus yourself available for designing.

The DG-1000 can be derigged with three when the local XC kamikaze gets
carried away with optimism.


I've rigged and derigged the DG1000 with one other person, one wing stand, and the trailer fuselage cradle. This does however require one of the people to know what they're doing and have done it a few times.
  #29  
Old January 20th 17, 05:44 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jacopo Romei
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Posts: 43
Default LS 4 vs ASW 20

For what it's worth... the way you are assigning "class" is problematic.

I am aware of this issue. Thanks for pointing this out though.
So far I relied on Wikipedia's assigning, but I understand (by reading the rules) that Club class is a "virtual" class.

Do you think I should *never* mention the Club class and stick to the original class assignment? Do you think it should be the case for every glider possibly assignable to Club class?

Thank you, learning a lot! :-)

--
Jacopo
  #30  
Old January 20th 17, 07:38 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bob Kuykendall
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Posts: 1,217
Default LS 4 vs ASW 20

On Thursday, January 19, 2017 at 8:30:05 PM UTC-8, George Haeh wrote:

- on ASW-20 manual elevator hookup on first model "A". Considerable
attrition because of this.


A true statement for moderately fatal values of "attrition."

All else being equal, for any two gliders choose the one with automatic control connections.

--Bob K.
 




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