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Stall spin during aero tow? Std cirrus



 
 
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  #11  
Old August 6th 18, 04:54 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
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Posts: 617
Default Stall spin during aero tow? Std cirrus

On Monday, August 6, 2018 at 11:37:11 AM UTC-4, Dan Daly wrote:
On Monday, August 6, 2018 at 11:20:51 AM UTC-4, JS wrote:
On Monday, August 6, 2018 at 8:00:52 AM UTC-7, Dan Daly wrote:
On Sunday, August 5, 2018 at 10:49:48 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Have there been stall spins during an aero tow?

Today, I had a very scary aero retrieve. From being towed to fast to-to slow. Anyways the scaries part was when, the tow plane started to climb and to slow. The indicated speed on the glider was 50 knots and decreasing. The glider kept slowing down and sinking under the tow plane into the wake. By this time the glider felt extremely sloopy and it felt like it was ready to drop into stall. Fortunately as I felt the wing wanting to drop, the tug leveld some and got back to a decent speed.

Yes I did radio the pilot askig for 20 indicated more. And I was attempting to release when I hit the wake, but the release on the standard cirrus is far, and my extention had moved from my legs.

I had to release a couple of times last year; put the first down to new tow pilot. Second... hmmm. When the Pawnee did its annual, transponder (actually encoder) failed, and leak in pitot/static system and a subtly bent pitot tube were found to be responsible. The towplane speed looked good, mine, not so much in a Std class glider with the stick on the back stop, still sinking. When in doubt, release and debrief; multiple times, find what the problem is (I had checked my pitot/static system for leaks too). One problem inexperienced tow pilots cause without thinking is pulling up in lift to use the energy - while the glider is still in the sink surrounding...


A simple improvement, if not a fix:
If it feels sloppy on tow, put in another notch of positive flaps.
Jim


Std Cirrus has no flaps. My Std Class glider has no flaps. Agree flaps work - if you have them.


That was the joke...

Pitch a little slower Jim... we want to be sporting, after all :-).

T8
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  #12  
Old August 6th 18, 06:48 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 10
Default Stall spin during aero tow? Std cirrus

I agree with Ramy, a fully laden ASG 29 is very intolerant of low tow speeds. As these wonderful gliders begin to fall into the hands les experienced, pilots it needs to become common knowledge that a heavy ASG 29 requires an extra 10 knots of airspeed from the tow plane. I have , and have seen two highly experienced friends struggle with control on takeoff in their 29’s.
We all had thermaling flaps deployed. This is especially true at high density altitudes. 80 knots works nicely. The tow pilot needs to be coached to hold the tow plane in ground effect until that speed is achieved. That can be unsettling to them, especially on hot days at high altitude, so the communication needs to be explicit. As others have said, some Pawnees have inaccurate pneumatics which can lead to pushback from the tow pilot. Any Standard class ship,when heavy, needs that same consideration.
Dale Bush
  #13  
Old August 6th 18, 08:33 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Chris Rowland[_2_]
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Posts: 44
Default Stall spin during aero tow? Std cirrus

At 13:47 06 August 2018, kirk.stant wrote:
On Monday, August 6, 2018 at 12:10:19 AM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
I also experienced recently slow takeoffs in my fully ballasted 29

which=
felt very uncomfortable. The yaw string was all over the place often
showi=
ng skidding. I am noticing it more in my 18m 29 than my 27, perhaps since
t=
he wing loading is higher, or due to more adverse yaw. Seems like 70

knots
=
should be the minimum, preferably 75 knots.=20
=20
Ramy


From a glider pilot (who has BTDT) and a current towpilot - the answer is
s=
imple, if not always effective: ALWAYS establish comms with the tow pilot
b=
efore the tow (satisfies the FAR requirement for a pilot to pilot
briefing)=
.. If you (or the tow plane) do not have working radios, get face to

face
w=
ith the tuggie and TELL HIM what speed to fly - that is YOUR
responsibility=
..

Once on tow, if the tow starts to slow down - TELL HIM ON THE RADIO TO
SPEE=
D UP! That's why you have the darn thing! Then, if the tow continues to
get=
dangerously slow (when you can't stay above the wake) and radio or wing
ro=
cks do not solve the problem, release (assuming you are high enough for a
s=
afe PTT) and get face to face with the tow pilot when he lands and

explain
=
the problem, nicely. Especially with tow pilots that are not also glider
pi=
lots, they REALLY may not understand what is going on at the back end of
th=
e rope!

Most tow pilots really want to give you a good tow, but feedback can be
rar=
e; take the time to debrief you tow pilot if anything unusual happens on
to=
w, and when possible brief and practice emergencies on tow - visual
signals=
(both glider and towplane), simulated tow plane engine failure, glider
div=
e brakes open, etc. Makes the tow more interesting than just a drag
around=
the local area waiting for 3000' AGL to appear on the clock...


Agree entirely about this. Talk to the tug pilot before you start.

I'm a new tuggie but have been gliding for 50 years. I want to give people
good tows. But if you don't let me know what you want then I won't feel
that bad if you don't get it.

Talking on the way up is all very well but we have to coordinate with the
tower before take off and it may take a while before I change back to the
gliding frequency.

It's sad how many people think that there's no need to talk to the tuggie.

Chris

  #14  
Old August 6th 18, 09:22 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
JS[_5_]
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Posts: 317
Default Stall spin during aero tow? Std cirrus

Sorry. At least it was after references to ASW20 and ASG29. The trick works in both.
Often laugh at myself for trying to grab the flap handle in a Duo. Doesn't work any better than it would in a Cirrus, except to get a second person laughing.
Jim

That was the joke...
Pitch a little slower Jim... we want to be sporting, after all :-).
T8

A simple improvement, if not a fix:
If it feels sloppy on tow, put in another notch of positive flaps.
Jim


  #15  
Old August 6th 18, 09:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
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Posts: 1,017
Default Stall spin during aero tow? Std cirrus

So, your empty hand can mark the map spot where you are.........since it isn't needed for flaps.....;-)

No, not relevant in this thread.
Funny, in my eyes, slow tow sucks in anything.

Yes, I fly a wide range of sailplanes.
  #16  
Old August 6th 18, 10:41 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andrzej Kobus
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Posts: 499
Default Stall spin during aero tow? Std cirrus

On Monday, August 6, 2018 at 1:48:53 PM UTC-4, wrote:
I agree with Ramy, a fully laden ASG 29 is very intolerant of low tow speeds. As these wonderful gliders begin to fall into the hands les experienced, pilots it needs to become common knowledge that a heavy ASG 29 requires an extra 10 knots of airspeed from the tow plane. I have , and have seen two highly experienced friends struggle with control on takeoff in their 29’s.
We all had thermaling flaps deployed. This is especially true at high density altitudes. 80 knots works nicely. The tow pilot needs to be coached to hold the tow plane in ground effect until that speed is achieved. That can be unsettling to them, especially on hot days at high altitude, so the communication needs to be explicit. As others have said, some Pawnees have inaccurate pneumatics which can lead to pushback from the tow pilot. Any Standard class ship,when heavy, needs that same consideration.
Dale Bush


Yes, this was exactly my experience in the 29. I almost stalled on tow. The same year I bought a self-launcher and I never had that problem again.
  #17  
Old August 7th 18, 03:28 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ramy[_2_]
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Posts: 381
Default Stall spin during aero tow? Std cirrus

It goes without saying that one must communicate their desired tow speed with the tow pilot (especially when faster than normal) and request more speed during the tow if necessary
That said, it is easier said than done at the high density altitude in the west, especially with non powerful tow planes. Releasing from tow is often not a good option when you just lifted off at the far end of the runway fully ballasted.

Ramy
  #18  
Old August 7th 18, 10:22 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathon May
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Posts: 32
Default Stall spin during aero tow? Std cirrus

At 02:28 07 August 2018, Ramy wrote:
It goes without saying that one must communicate their desired tow speed
with the tow pilot (especially when faster than normal) and request more
speed during the tow if necessary
That said, it is easier said than done at the high density altitude in

the
west, especially with non powerful tow planes. Releasing from tow is

often
not a good option when you just lifted off at the far end of the runway
fully ballasted.

Ramy

Hi sorry for the thread creep
I have just Changed to a Ventus 2c after 1500 without flaps.
As briefed I roll in negative flap and change to +2 when I am sure that I
have aileron control.The tug pilot knows all this and tows me at 70+knts.
Am I now at the flap limit for positive flaps?
Last flight I was happy up to 70 but above I chose to go to 0.
Jon


  #19  
Old August 7th 18, 03:45 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Steve Koerner
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Posts: 389
Default Stall spin during aero tow? Std cirrus

This subject comes up every few years on RAS and that's a very good thing. Long ago there was a death on tow with a heavily watered ship that I'm pretty sure was caused by this.

I have already posted a couple times in the past about my own near death experiences I have had dangling from a slow towplane at a remarkably low stalled tow position while slamming the stick back and forth against the stops in Ventus 1 and in ASW27. When this is happening at a very low altitude (as it was), then releasing is not an option.

Several have pointed up the necessity of communicating with the tow pilot. I think it preferable to communicate in writing. Except at contests, I always make sure that the tow pilot has been handed my written towing instruction when I have water ballast. Here's a link to my little towing instruction sheet: https://goo.gl/PwVu71


  #20  
Old August 7th 18, 03:52 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 3,278
Default Stall spin during aero tow? Std cirrus

Releasing is always an option.* I would rather land straight ahead,
maneuvering just enough to avoid any hard things on the ground than
stalling on tow.* That will kill you.* Taking off the wings between two
cars or tractors or whatever will dissipate most of the energy of the
crash and the insurance company can buy you a new glider. Not to mention
you might also kill the tuggie by hanging on in a losing situation.

On 8/7/2018 8:45 AM, Steve Koerner wrote:
This subject comes up every few years on RAS and that's a very good thing. Long ago there was a death on tow with a heavily watered ship that I'm pretty sure was caused by this.

I have already posted a couple times in the past about my own near death experiences I have had dangling from a slow towplane at a remarkably low stalled tow position while slamming the stick back and forth against the stops in Ventus 1 and in ASW27. When this is happening at a very low altitude (as it was), then releasing is not an option.

Several have pointed up the necessity of communicating with the tow pilot. I think it preferable to communicate in writing. Except at contests, I always make sure that the tow pilot has been handed my written towing instruction when I have water ballast. Here's a link to my little towing instruction sheet: https://goo.gl/PwVu71



--
Dan, 5J
 




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