Predestined to Die?

On May 21, 11:03*pm, BobW wrote:
On 5/21/2012 7:03 PM, Brad wrote:

Major snip...



We're all now just a bad landing or a turn into the hill away from
being a "statistic" here on RAS. Who will be the next topic of "Crunch
Alert"? and more to the point, what will it change in anyone's
behavior?

"{W]hat will it change in anyone's behavior?" is - to my way of thinking - the
sixty-four-thousand dollar question.

I'm inclined to think that if discussions as these - and the personal thought
that presumably is a part - does NOT change an individual's future behavior
(because it changes their outlook/thinking which in turn has power to alter
behavior), then so be it...but I'd ask a following question: Why not?

It's a serious question. A valid answer - in my mind - for NOT changing one's
outlook/behavior is the person is already "in the right place" mentally.
That's a great thing! (I like to think I got myself there regarding
inadvertent departures from controlled flight some time back in the 1980's,
for example.) Actually, that's the ONLY valid answer I've ever been able to
conjure up.

If there's anyone out there who seriously thinks differently, it certainly
seems a great topic for discussion!

Bob W.

I'm going to ruin the continuity of this discussion to go in a
slightly different direction. This is how I see it. I always look at
the big picture first, then work backward. Prioritize safety by
looking at the accident statistics, and figure out how you will
mitigate the most prevalent dangers first. Then so on, down the
line. We are like one child growing up. How can we keep repeating
the same mistakes that seem so obvious? How can we not learn from
them, correct behavior and move to a higher level? Lazy, complacent,
unenlightened to the dangers?

I'm fairly new to soaring, and I'm very engaged. I read a lot, study a
lot, practice on a sim, follow RAS, watch OLC, read accident
statistics, read a lot about general aviation safety issues and human
factors. I'm very excited about venturing out on cross countries.
I'm sort of mystified at the low percentage of our club members that
seem to be engaged to my level. Very few seem interested in silver
badges and up. Hardly anyone has an iPaq or uses the club flight
recorder, knows about IGC files, tasks and such.

Maybe there is something to be said for the French method of continued
education. Maybe there is a sub set of pilots that tend to shut down
after getting their ticket.

Sorry for the disorganized rambling. ...Aaron

No one seems interested in this topic, but it seems to me that
competition flying increases risk substantially. From the outside
lookin in, it honestly looks pretty scary.

On May 22, 7:38*pm, akiley wrote:
On May 21, 11:03*pm, BobW wrote:









On 5/21/2012 7:03 PM, Brad wrote:

Major snip...

We're all now just a bad landing or a turn into the hill away from
being a "statistic" here on RAS. Who will be the next topic of "Crunch
Alert"? and more to the point, what will it change in anyone's
behavior?

"{W]hat will it change in anyone's behavior?" is - to my way of thinking - the
sixty-four-thousand dollar question.

I'm inclined to think that if discussions as these - and the personal thought
that presumably is a part - does NOT change an individual's future behavior
(because it changes their outlook/thinking which in turn has power to alter
behavior), then so be it...but I'd ask a following question: Why not?

It's a serious question. A valid answer - in my mind - for NOT changing one's
outlook/behavior is the person is already "in the right place" mentally..
That's a great thing! (I like to think I got myself there regarding
inadvertent departures from controlled flight some time back in the 1980's,
for example.) Actually, that's the ONLY valid answer I've ever been able to
conjure up.

If there's anyone out there who seriously thinks differently, it certainly
seems a great topic for discussion!

Bob W.

I'm going to ruin the continuity of this discussion to go in a
slightly different direction. *This is how I see it. *I always look at
the big picture first, then work backward. *Prioritize safety by
looking at the accident statistics, and figure out how you will
mitigate the most prevalent dangers first. *Then so on, down the
line. *We are like one child growing up. *How can we keep repeating
the same mistakes that seem so obvious? How can we not learn from
them, correct behavior and move to a higher level? *Lazy, complacent,
unenlightened to the dangers?

I'm fairly new to soaring, and I'm very engaged. I read a lot, study a
lot, practice on a sim, follow RAS, watch OLC, read accident
statistics, read a lot about general aviation safety issues and human
factors. * I'm very excited about venturing out on cross countries.
I'm sort of mystified at the low percentage of our club members that
seem to be engaged to my level. *Very few seem interested in silver
badges and up. *Hardly anyone has an iPaq or uses the club flight
recorder, knows about IGC files, tasks and such.

Maybe there is something to be said for the French method of continued
education. *Maybe there is a sub set of pilots that tend to shut down
after getting their ticket.

Sorry for the disorganized rambling. * ...Aaron

No one seems interested in this topic, but it seems to me that
competition flying increases risk substantially. *From the outside
lookin in, it honestly looks pretty scary.

Aaron, keep that attitude, stay engaged, and I predict a long an happy
flying career.

In all flying - you get the opportunity to set your own risk thresholds.

So - from the outside racing may look dangerous.
From the inside it sometimes looks/is dangerous.

The question is - what do you DO.

I am not particularly serious racing pilot - but have competed in a few
regional contests. My observation is that - things that people do
regularly, and without injury or harm may appear dangerous to the
uninitiated or uninformed. Once you have developed the skill and
experience - one has a more objective view of the risk. Some things are
inherently more dangerous, but in general a well informed and skilled
racing flight is seldom deliberately dangerous. It is hard to win a
contest with a broken glider. So - Racing certainly raises your skill
level, if you do it right. It will also lower your risk of injury etc.
by exposing you to an intense learning environment, some of the best
pilots and lots of motivation to push your own skills development.

What better environment for developing XC skills - there is a competent
daily weather forecast, task planning for the best use if the
conditions, retrieve and Search and Rescue is laid on and alert. Lots of
willing help if you land out. Objective information on how good your
decisions are in comparison to the other pilots.

There is nothing to compare with seeing a task on the briefing board
that is a full 50% further than you have ever flown XC, and completing
it safely... Conversely, watching a world champion go past 500 feet
above you when you thought you had a safe final glide is a learning
experience too. (I will give you a clue - it was not him who outlanded
4km short)

Sure - it may take a while before you and the rest of the gaggle is
comfortable. But it is not intrinsically dangerous. If everyone is
flying proficiently there is no higher risk than the twirly birding over
the field on a lazy afternoon.



--
Bruce Greeff
T59D #1771

On 5/22/2012 9:36 PM, Bill D wrote:
On May 22, 7:38 pm, wrote:

Major snip...

I'm going to ruin the continuity of this discussion to go in a
slightly different direction. This is how I see it. I always look at
the big picture first, then work backward. Prioritize safety by
looking at the accident statistics, and figure out how you will
mitigate the most prevalent dangers first. Then so on, down the
line. We are like one child growing up. How can we keep repeating
the same mistakes that seem so obvious? How can we not learn from
them, correct behavior and move to a higher level? Lazy, complacent,
unenlightened to the dangers?

I'm fairly new to soaring, and I'm very engaged. I read a lot, study a
lot, practice on a sim, follow RAS, watch OLC, read accident
statistics, read a lot about general aviation safety issues and human
factors. I'm very excited about venturing out on cross countries.
I'm sort of mystified at the low percentage of our club members that
seem to be engaged to my level. Very few seem interested in silver
badges and up. Hardly anyone has an iPaq or uses the club flight
recorder, knows about IGC files, tasks and such.

Maybe there is something to be said for the French method of continued
education. Maybe there is a sub set of pilots that tend to shut down
after getting their ticket.

Sorry for the disorganized rambling. ...Aaron

Snip...


Aaron, keep that attitude, stay engaged, and I predict a long and happy
flying career.

"What Bill said."

Bob W.

I personally at the beginning of every flight figure I will futz up in at least a couple of ways and consciously try not to stack too many of those in row.....

On 5/24/2012 8:14 PM, wrote:
I personally at the beginning of every flight figure I will futz up in at
least a couple of ways and consciously try not to stack too many of those
in row.....

Another example of good thinking, in my book...

Kinda-sorta related...as Bill D. has recently pointed out several times,
there're some piloting actions of negative consequences so catastrophic
"stacking" isn't an option. I got away with one of those once. Off the top of
my head, it probably ties for the nearest I've come to self-induced heart
stoppage.

On my home turf, on my "usual" pre-evening delayed slide toward the pattern, I
decided it would be fun to whoosh across the last ridge before the Great
Plains begin, zoom up into the usual gentle ridge lift typically to be found
there-n-then, and rack around into a 270 to whiz along the ridge top, burning
off altitude. Surely any late-hiking ridge toppers would appreciate the visual
treat. (You can rationalize anything, if you try hard enough.)

All went as planned until about 120-degrees into the approach reversal as I'm
looking back over my shoulder to pick up sight of the ridge top (which I'd
crossed at an obtuse angle) so's to fine-tune the bank angle to ease on around
and roll out parallel, close abeam the ridge top. The heart-stopping moment
was realizing the ridge top wasn't the expected several hundred feet below the
glider, but WAS SEVERAL HUNDRED FEET *ABOVE* THE GLIDER!!!"

I'd "pulled up" into sink, of course. (Guess I shoulda considered that
possibility beforehand, huh?)

So "there I wuz", descending from a chandelle turn, simultaneously sinking
like a rock toward the rocks, hundreds of feet lower than "planned", directly
above the lumpies of the *much* wider lower ridge, still "an angular ways"
from heading directly toward the ridge. The compelling question of the moment
was would I smash into the rocks I could *feel* below, or smash into those I
could see, ahead? Compounding the terror was the need to *DO* something if I
was to have any hope of avoiding either undoubtedly fatal consequence. I
needed to "instantly" decide whether chances were improved by reversing or
tightening my turn. The former tempted by seemingly shortening the time at
which horizontal clearance from horizontally distant rocks could possibly
begin increasing...but those weren't rocks I could possibly hit. The latter
meant I'd continue curving TOWARD the ridge...not an inviting prospect.
Hobson's choice.

Reversing probably maximized chances of hitting rocks below; tightening, those
more or less ahead (assuming I didn't induce an accelerated stall). You'd
probably have to know the ridge for my attempted description to make sense,
but rest assured, it was ugly.

I opted-for/got-away-with tightening the turn. Once definitely clear, I
promptly slunk off toward the home field (hoping to not die of embarrassment),
settled myself down as best I could, then landed...so thoroughly ashamed of
and embarrassed/angry at my complacent stupidity that I've never told anyone
about the incident. Until now. It remains one of those life situations that
gives me the shakes each time I relive it.

Kids, never forget the "luxury of stacking" *may* not be an option!!!

Knowledge beforehand in conjunction with pre-answering the question, "What's
my 'out' if this doesn't go as planned?" is Joe Pilot's life insurance policy
against "non-stackers." Some of those 0'beer-thirty stories contain "insurance
lessons" worth identifying/heeding...even if told only for laughs.

Bob - nuthin' funny about this one - W.

On Fri, 25 May 2012 00:16:12 -0600, Bob Whelan wrote:

I opted-for/got-away-with tightening the turn. Once definitely clear, I
promptly slunk off toward the home field (hoping to not die of
embarrassment),
settled myself down as best I could, then landed...so thoroughly ashamed
of and embarrassed/angry at my complacent stupidity that I've never told
anyone about the incident. Until now. It remains one of those life
situations that gives me the shakes each time I relive it.

Kids, never forget the "luxury of stacking" *may* not be an option!!!

Knowledge beforehand in conjunction with pre-answering the question,
"What's my 'out' if this doesn't go as planned?" is Joe Pilot's life
insurance policy against "non-stackers." Some of those 0'beer-thirty
stories contain "insurance lessons" worth identifying/heeding...even if
told only for laughs.

Thanks for sharing that one.

I'm (hopefully) innoculated against that one, thanks to my only flight
from Omarama. I'd told my instructor that "I'm so ignorant of mountain
flying that I don't know what I don't know: I'd like an introduction."
and that was a good move: I learnt heaps during the next three hours as a
direct result. My innoculation was being taught "never turn toward the
hill unless the vario says 'up' continuously in the outermost part of the
turn".

Makes a lot of sense when you think about it.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On 5/25/2012 5:58 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Fri, 25 May 2012 00:16:12 -0600, Bob Whelan wrote:

I opted-for/got-away-with tightening the turn. Once definitely clear, I
promptly slunk off toward the home field (hoping to not die of
embarrassment),
settled myself down as best I could, then landed...so thoroughly ashamed
of and embarrassed/angry at my complacent stupidity that I've never told
anyone about the incident. Until now. It remains one of those life
situations that gives me the shakes each time I relive it.

Kids, never forget the "luxury of stacking" *may* not be an option!!!

Knowledge beforehand in conjunction with pre-answering the question,
"What's my 'out' if this doesn't go as planned?" is Joe Pilot's life
insurance policy against "non-stackers." Some of those 0'beer-thirty
stories contain "insurance lessons" worth identifying/heeding...even if
told only for laughs.

Thanks for sharing that one.

I'm (hopefully) innoculated against that one, thanks to my only flight
from Omarama. I'd told my instructor that "I'm so ignorant of mountain
flying that I don't know what I don't know: I'd like an introduction."
and that was a good move: I learnt heaps during the next three hours as a
direct result. My innoculation was being taught "never turn toward the
hill unless the vario says 'up' continuously in the outermost part of the
turn".

Makes a lot of sense when you think about it.



Indeed it does.

As to the "light of idiocy" your "inoculatory nostrum" shines on my
coulda-easily-been-fatal move, obviously I'd not looked at my (excellent/netto
TE display) for a single moment after crossing the ridge line. (What an idiot!
What WAS he THINKing?!?) Nor was it the first time I'd attempted the maneuver.
(Can't use inexperience as an excuse.)

I also neglected to mention this particular bout of idiocy almost certainly
occurred sometime between '85 and '95 (when I'd ~1,000 glider hours, roughly
60% of which originated from the field to which I slunk). Point being that
I've had a *long* time to bury the memories. Not that I ever tried to, and not
that I recall ever obsessing over it beyond ensuring I extracted some useful
lessons about it, but very little dimming of the sheer terror and vast
stupidity demonstrated has occurred.

Bob W.