When was the last time you used your ADF?

And now every game is on XM in perfect audio quality.

RST Engineering wrote:
Padres against the Tigers, third game of the World Series about twenty years
ago while VFR going from San Diego to Sacramento.

Jim

Which in no way erases the fact that the Pads got blown out by the Cats in
five games.

Jim



"Newps" wrote in message
news
And now every game is on XM in perfect audio quality.

RST Engineering wrote:
Padres against the Tigers, third game of the World Series about twenty
years ago while VFR going from San Diego to Sacramento.

Jim

On 06/07/06 15:39, Robert M. Gary wrote:
Its recently been added as a resquirement for the ILS 02 for KSAC. For
decades we've been flying that approach w/o ADF, apparently the FAA has
recently decided that ADFs are important.

Well, you have to wonder how many airplanes that fly that approach
actually have a working ADF (not even counting GPS as a substitute).

Even if they have one, I wonder what percentage of pilots actually
use it (on this approach) for anything other than to detect passage
of the outer marker...


-Robert


wrote:
Hello all,

I'm just curious as to when the last time was that you used your ADF
for actual navigation? Are NDBs common in the US? It seems as though
every little airport has an ILS!

-dr




--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

On Wed, 07 Jun 2006 20:09:09 -0400, Roy Smith wrote:

In article ,
"Peter R." wrote:

Michael wrote:

snip
What bothers me is the loss of the ADF from the training environment.
The ADF forced the student to understand the difference between
heading, bearing, track, and course.

Is it not possible to teach these same concepts using the GPS? Those
concepts are all relative to the GPS, too, no?

In theory, yes. In practice, "follow the purple line" works pretty well,
even if you don't really understand what you're doing.

I don't think GPS even comes close to simulating an NDB approach. GPS
gives you a line to follow. Then NDB points to the station so with a
cross wind and no practice you can end up arriving at 90 degrees to
your original heading. You do the cross wind correction without
really knowing what's going on in the GPS. Just follow the line by
pointing the nose where ever it needs to go. With the NDB *you* have
to figure out where it needs to go, and be able to make corrections.

No more of this descending in the NDB hold on partial panel with a
strong cross wind. Now that's an exercise with timed turns to a
heading, timed descents to an altitude, or combining the two to make a
timed 180 degree turn to a specific heading and altitude and you are
expected to reach the heading and altitude at the same time.

GPS just takes all the fun out of those exercises:-))

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Wed, 7 Jun 2006 15:59:32 PST,
(Everett M. Greene) wrote:

writes:

I'm just curious as to when the last time was that you used your ADF
for actual navigation? Are NDBs common in the US? It seems as though
every little airport has an ILS!

The more important first question is how many have a
/working/ ADF installed.

I do and I use it. It gets used more as a back up position check for
situational awareness, but we do have one NDB only approach about 20
miles from here.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

In article ,
Roger wrote:

No more of this descending in the NDB hold on partial panel with a
strong cross wind. Now that's an exercise with timed turns to a
heading, timed descents to an altitude, or combining the two to make a
timed 180 degree turn to a specific heading and altitude and you are
expected to reach the heading and altitude at the same time.

GPS just takes all the fun out of those exercises:-))

Finally, a good reason to get a GPS.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

Rog,
I actually used the ADF in Fat Albert flying IFR a week ago... A line
of nasty stuff was blowing off Lake Erie right at Port Clinton and the
area was IMC... I wanted to air file direct from Toledo, Oh to Akron,
Oh and the Akron VOR reception was unreliable (temperature inversion)
at that time... I was filed as /A... The enroute controller inquired
if I had enroute IFR GPS... I replied negative, but I did have an
ADF... Bang, I was cleared "TOL (vor) direct AK (ndb)"... So, score
one for the old technology... That said the moving map GPS rode shotgun
for the ADF receiver until we were back to VMC..
The biggest problem with ADF reception anymore is the lousy programming
available on the AM stations...

denny

Peter R. wrote:
What bothers me is the loss of the ADF from the training environment.
The ADF forced the student to understand the difference between
heading, bearing, track, and course.

Is it not possible to teach these same concepts using the GPS? Those
concepts are all relative to the GPS, too, no?

Those concepts are relative to ANY method of navigation. It's just
that with some forms of navigation, you can get by with not really
understanding the difference most - but not all - of the time.

So yes, it's possible - but not terribly likely to happen, in the same
way that it's possible to teach a student to consistently fly and land
at the correct airspeed and to touch down at a consistent pitch
attitude and with the longitudinal axis aligned with the runway in a
C-172, but usually it doesn't happen. The proof is that most pilots
trained in a C-172 can't just sit down in a C-170 and fly it - but some
can. On the other hand, a C-170 pilot can always get in a C-172 and
fly it. That's because his skill set is more general - it always
works. But if you want an airplane for practical purposes - getting
from point A to point B reliably - the C-172 is clearly the better
airplane.

So why won't most students learn the right way in the C-172 (or with a
GPS rather than an ADF?) It's just too easy to do it to PTS standards
the wrong way. Why is it wrong? Because while it works most of the
time, there are situations where it will bite you.

In the training environment, there is a tradeoff between how good a
pilot and how good a teacher an instructor must be. In an airplane
with 2 nav-coms, an ADF, and a standard six-pack (and nothing else) you
better be a good IFR pilot if you're going to teach in IMC (there is a
special place reserved in hell for CFII's who won't teach in IMC) or
you're likely to lose SA, and maybe the airplane too. But if the
student manages to learn (even if he has to teach himself) he will
learn (some of) the right things. With a setup like that, if he can do
the (ILS, VOR, and NDB) approaches and consistenly find himself on the
map or approach plate, he has learned the difference between heading,
bearing, course, track, and radial - even if he can't really explain it
- and has developed situational awareness. This will be the case even
if his instructor can't teach. Of course he may never learn at all,
but then he won't get the rating and won't be dangerous.

Now let's say you have two 430's, a PFD, and backup AI, ASI, and
altimeter. Instructing in IMC becomes a breeze - almost any CFII can
do it. What's more, the flying is much easier. Just follow the line.
There's a problem with this, though. Just following the line won't
ALWAYS work. There are still situations where you need real SA. But
they're hard to simulate, harder to teach, and still harder to test.
It takes a really good teacher to get the student to understand why the
difference between heading, bearing, course, track, and radial is
important, and get the student to learn the differences, internalize
them, and develop true situational awareness of which positional
awareness is only a subset. The better equipment calls for a more
skilled teacher, who need not be a particularly skilled pilot.

Michael

.... and all the stations carrying Rush refuse to play on a radio inside
something with a left wing. {;-)


Jim




The biggest problem with ADF reception anymore is the lousy programming
available on the AM stations...

denny

I've never used one and only learned how in theory for the tests. Been
flying since 1970 and IFR certified around 1999.

wrote:
Hello all,

I'm just curious as to when the last time was that you used your ADF
for actual navigation? Are NDBs common in the US? It seems as though
every little airport has an ILS!

-dr