Unclear Clearance

On 4/11/2007 2:11:19 AM, "Travis Marlatte" wrote:

OK. I'm done. Every response has been along the lines of "what's the
problem!" so I guess it's just me.

Travis, you were wise to ask about this scenario here. Do not take the few
"duh!" replies personally. This is a discussion group that serves more than
just the contributors. There were most likely many more in lurk mode who
benefited from your legitimate question and the responses it received.

--
Peter

On 04/11/07 07:22, Peter R. wrote:
On 4/11/2007 2:11:19 AM, "Travis Marlatte" wrote:

OK. I'm done. Every response has been along the lines of "what's the
problem!" so I guess it's just me.

Travis, you were wise to ask about this scenario here. Do not take the few
"duh!" replies personally. This is a discussion group that serves more than
just the contributors. There were most likely many more in lurk mode who
benefited from your legitimate question and the responses it received.


I'll second that! - Travis: Thanks for bringing this up.


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

Travis Marlatte wrote:

"Newps" wrote in message
. ..



They asked if you were ready to copy, you said yes. Then they read you
your clearance. Pretty cut and dried.


I'll take your word for it but it seems cut and dried only for a clearance
delivery. It was a separate step of activation that I was missing.

There's nothing to miss, you're talking to the guy who's responsible for
the airspace.



That would make no sense as the release can only come from the guy who
just read you your clearance.


That seems like a strong statement that only applies in a small number of
scenarios. My experience is that I very rarely get a release from the guy
who just read me my clearance.


When you are flying along and a controller reads you a clearance that is
always the case.



Yes. Cleared to...is as clear as it gets.


Unless it's in the wrong context. Every time I get a clearance from
Clearance Delivery on the ground I get a "Cleared to ..." but that doesn't
consitute a release.

You have to separate in the air from on the ground, totally different
situations.

Andrew Sarangan wrote:

I am unclear on why you thought this clearance was unclear. You were
cleared to D95 and you were told to climb to 5000. What additional
instructions were you expecting to make that clearance valid?
Regarding the squawk code, it is not all that unusual to get the code
on the first call and get the complete clearance afterwards.

With the exception being the controller gave him a code and then said he
was going to look for his clearance. If he finds one it will have a
different code on the strip so either the pilot will have to change
codes or the controller will have to make an ammendment on the flight
plan. That's working too hard.

Travis Marlatte wrote:



Someone suggested that as soon as the words were spoken they would have
turned and climbed. That doesn't seem right. That seems like it doesn't give
the controller a chance to manage their airspace.


The airspace management happened before he read you the clearance.
Besides you're flying at 120 knots, it's hard for you to cause problems.

Newps wrote:
/snip/
Besides you're flying at 120 knots, it's hard for you to cause problems.


Hey, Travis never said anything about being in a power dive

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane
(Ducking from the Lake drivers around here!)

On Apr 9, 10:48 pm, "Travis Marlatte"
wrote:
This didn't cause any problems other than some additional radio traffic but
it caught me off guard. Let me know what you think...

As many people already stated, once you hear the magic words "cleared
to", it means you are already in the system, under IFR (you can now
fly in the clouds and do whatever they told you to do)

I had another situation where it was a little more unclear, when
departing from an uncontrolled field, IFR plan on file:

70V: "jax center, Cessna 70V at xxxx, would like to pick up IFR
clearance to FTY"

JAX:"70V, squawk 1234, climb to 5000, I'll have the rest of your
clearance in a few minutes"

5000 feet would put me in the clouds, and having not heard the words
"cleared to", I wasn't sure if I was considered to be flying IFR at
this point, so I told the controller that 5000 would put me in the
clouds, and he responded to go ahead, that I was already IFR.

So you can be IFR already even without having received your complete
clearance.
When the controller issues a "Climb to 5000", it IS a clearance, even
though it does not tell you where you are going (yet).

70V: "jax center, Cessna 70V at xxxx, would like to pick up IFR
clearance to FTY"

JAX:"70V, squawk 1234, climb to 5000, I'll have the rest of your
clearance in a few minutes"

5000 feet would put me in the clouds, and having not heard the words
"cleared to", I wasn't sure if I was considered to be flying IFR at
this point, so I told the controller that 5000 would put me in the
clouds, and he responded to go ahead, that I was already IFR.

So you can be IFR already even without having received your complete
clearance.

Well, that was an improperly delivered clearance. What do you do if you
lose comm? (I suppose fly your flight plan, and hope he actually finds it.)

When the controller issues a "Climb to 5000", it IS a clearance, even
though it does not tell you where you are going (yet).

No, I would not rely on that to be true, at least not without asking
=explicitly= if I am IFR.

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

On 04/12/07 21:13, Guillermo wrote:
On Apr 9, 10:48 pm, "Travis Marlatte"
wrote:
This didn't cause any problems other than some additional radio traffic but
it caught me off guard. Let me know what you think...

As many people already stated, once you hear the magic words "cleared
to", it means you are already in the system, under IFR (you can now
fly in the clouds and do whatever they told you to do)

I had another situation where it was a little more unclear, when
departing from an uncontrolled field, IFR plan on file:

70V: "jax center, Cessna 70V at xxxx, would like to pick up IFR
clearance to FTY"

JAX:"70V, squawk 1234, climb to 5000, I'll have the rest of your
clearance in a few minutes"

5000 feet would put me in the clouds, and having not heard the words
"cleared to", I wasn't sure if I was considered to be flying IFR at
this point, so I told the controller that 5000 would put me in the
clouds, and he responded to go ahead, that I was already IFR.

So you can be IFR already even without having received your complete
clearance.
When the controller issues a "Climb to 5000", it IS a clearance, even
though it does not tell you where you are going (yet).

I don't think that's true. The FARs say that clearance must include the
words "Cleared to...". In such a situation, I think the correct thing
to do is ask, as you did. However, I don't think what the controller
initially gave you should generally be interpreted as a clearance.


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

Mark Hansen wrote:

I don't think that's true. The FARs say that clearance must include the
words "Cleared to...".
Really, what FAR would that be? The FARs aren't much on phraseology.