"Outlandings" discussion

So, what do you call an outlanding? If you land at an established
airport/airfield is this an "Outlanding"? Or is it an uncompleted
flight into an airport. I have read a lot of club SOP's that recommend
a "planned" outlanding into an airport as training for a real
outlanding! Not the same thing. Is this a recipe for trouble? Now I
know some of you fly where the only safe outlanding opertunities are
established airfields, i.e. the western portion of the US, but for the
rest of us these can be the choice of last resort. I I live and fly in
Sourthern Germany where outlanding fields are numerous and in the
Northern Alps the outlanding fields are identified and catalouged
(http://www.streckenflug.at/index.php?p=w_inhalt).

Bob
Waiting on the wave!

wrote:
So, what do you call an outlanding? If you land at an established
airport/airfield is this an "Outlanding"? Or is it an uncompleted
flight into an airport.

Mentally, I approach every landing made away from my runway of takeoff
as an off-field landing, whether made at an airport or not....run
through the same checklist w. the same rigor, etc.
- - - - - -

I have read a lot of club SOP's that recommend
a "planned" outlanding into an airport as training for a real
outlanding! Not the same thing. Is this a recipe for trouble?
Not - IMHO - if done per above. True, paved-airport landings don't
address the off-field surface issue(s), but I'm aware of at least one
broken G-103 done at a non-home-airport landing...and LOTS of landing
lights hit over the years. A paved-airport landing has all of the same
OFL landing risks save two: 1) known good surface, and 2) generally
decent approaches.
- - - - - -

Now I
know some of you fly where the only safe outlanding opertunities are
established airfields, i.e. the western portion of the US, but for the
rest of us these can be the choice of last resort. I I live and fly in
Sourthern Germany where outlanding fields are numerous and in the
Northern Alps the outlanding fields are identified and catalouged
(http://www.streckenflug.at/index.php?p=w_inhalt).
FWIW, my OFL checklist is S-O-A-R: Surface (Priority 1, 2 or 3) -
Obstructions (on said surface) - Approach (obstructions on...) -
Rectangle (as in, make your final approach a complete rectangle...for a
host of inter-related reasons).

Haven't broken anything yet...

Regards,
Bob - cowardly/careful/chicken - W.

On 27 Jan, 17:00, Bob Whelan wrote:
wrote:
So, what do you call an outlanding? If you land at an established
airport/airfield is this an "Outlanding"? Or is it an uncompleted
flight into an airport.

Mentally, I approach every landing made away from my runway of takeoff
as an off-field landing, whether made at an airport or not....run
through the same checklist w. the same rigor, etc.
- - - - - -

I have read a lot of club SOP's that recommend a "planned" outlanding into an airport as training for a real
outlanding! Not the same thing. Is this a recipe for trouble?

Not - IMHO - if done per above. True, paved-airport landings don't
address the off-field surface issue(s), but I'm aware of at least one
broken G-103 done at a non-home-airport landing...and LOTS of landing
lights hit over the years. A paved-airport landing has all of the same
OFL landing risks save two: 1) known good surface, and 2) generally
decent approaches.
- - - - - -


A landing at a strange airfield is just that! Any resemblance to an
'outlanding' is nothing more than coincidental!
If you are flying 'airfield' to 'airfield' you know that there is
going to be a runway and decent approaches you dont have to worry
about things like ........

Field selection, orientation, slope, surface type, crops and height of
crop, livestock in the field and yes approaches. Also it may not be
big enough so now what! Options and a 'plan B'

Then there's post landing safety, what happens if you stuff it into an
unseen obstruction in a remote field, will someone find you and/or the
wreckage. Communications? There may be no one about for miles and the
cell phone coverage could be lousy. Security, what happens to your
ship when you walk out?

How do you get the ship out? Access for car and trailer. Do the crew
even know where you are?

Your own well being? I have been in fields for up to 6 hours without a
roll of toilet paper - no problem at an airfield but it nearly cost me
a sectional
Water? Shelter? What about protection for self and ship from the hail
or electrical storm that was about to wash you out of the sky?

Ok so a lot of this is not a problem in the UK where the nearest
village is usually no more than a couple of miles away but in some
places I have flown they are very real considerations.

The pilot stress level are considerably more going into a 'field'!

Bob,

Personally, I call landing at any place other than home-base a
landout, or off-field landing, or outlanding. It can be another
airport, or a field. My post-flight and in-flight preparation is the
same for all landings regardless of whether they are at home, or
somewhere else. By the way, always make every landing an accuracy
touchdown and accuracy stop.

Years ago, an instructor told me to make my first landout at a
familiar airport away from home. This would teach me many lessons.
Today as an instructor, I advocate the same thing. If one chooses to
do this, they will learn more than any classroom course can teach, and
learn it safely.

You should prepare for this by talking with positive and experienced
members in your club. Fact is that someone is going to have to
retrieve you. Enters a lesson: Buy them a nice steak dinner. Perhaps
you will plan an aero retrieve, or automobile retrieve. Enters another
lesson: Leave your car and trailer in combat readiness, for doing so
will make you a more desirable member to retrieve.

Bob wrote: Is this a recipe for trouble?

No, with preparation and discussion, an intentional first landout is a
safe maneuver.

New pilots have a natural and understandable fear to try cross-country
in a glider. Overcoming concerns of landing out is probably the
biggest reason some pilots never leave gliding range from home.
Practicing a landout under controlled conditions is superior to doing
your first one unplanned. As advised to me, my first landout was
intentional; I learned so many big lessons and little lissons (like
making sure my cell phone battery was charged, that I had a few
quarters for a pay phone, that I knew about landing lights, that
Saturdays are better than Sundays, etc.). My second landout was every
challenge imaginable all in one: rolling hills all around, fences,
small field, horses, 105 degree dry outside air temperature, thermal
on short-short final, downward sloping landing spot, only one head-
size rock in the entire beautiful field (which I avoided by one foot)
etc.

Thank goodness I already had a practice landout under my belt.

Raul Boerner
DM

On Jan 27, 9:07 am, "
wrote:
So, what do you call an outlanding?

Whenever I have to start the motor ;-)

....Before which I've already planned an outlanding and started the
pattern, just in case...

See ya, Dave "YO electric"

nimbusgb wrote:

Some intervening questions/comments snipped...

A landing at a strange airfield is just that! Any resemblance to an
'outlanding' is nothing more than coincidental!
If you are flying 'airfield' to 'airfield' you know that there is
going to be a runway and decent approaches you dont have to worry
about things like ........

Field selection, orientation, slope, surface type, crops and height of
crop, livestock in the field and yes approaches. Also it may not be
big enough so now what! Options and a 'plan B'

One's OFL options obviously vary by locale. The closest I've come to
post-landing hypothermia was on a paved airport, in July, w. a
dust-blowing wind at sunset. Rather than use my cockpit, an unlocked
fuel truck was my chosen windbreak. No traffic (air or ground) at the
field for hours...until the local constabulary arrived as my crew and I
were struggling to remove wings in 35+ knot winds. (He didn't help.)

My point was/is that - riskwise - landouts at airports - at least in the
western U.S. - are really not very far from landouts in fields, and to
assume otherwise is to blandly risk bitter disappointment, and perhaps
an unnecessarily broken glider.

For the record, the worst crosswind I've ever had to deal with was on a
paved runway. Sometimes an OFL may be the discretion part of valor.

We're in complete agreement that one should always have a Plan B (and C
& D under development) until the final field is selected.
- - - - - -

Then there's post landing safety, what happens if you stuff it into an
unseen obstruction in a remote field, will someone find you and/or the
wreckage. Communications? There may be no one about for miles and the
cell phone coverage could be lousy. Security, what happens to your
ship when you walk out?

How do you get the ship out? Access for car and trailer. Do the crew
even know where you are?

Your own well being? I have been in fields for up to 6 hours without a
roll of toilet paper - no problem at an airfield but it nearly cost me
a sectional
Water? Shelter? What about protection for self and ship from the hail
or electrical storm that was about to wash you out of the sky?

Ok so a lot of this is not a problem in the UK where the nearest
village is usually no more than a couple of miles away but in some
places I have flown they are very real considerations.

Indeed, such considerations are very real in much of the world where I
regularly soar. That noted, I stand by my previous allegation(s).
Maybe one day I'll even purchase a cell phone.

I - rightly or wrongly - assume every glider pilot is prepared in some
measure for post-landing ground conditions short of a life-threatening
emergency. (I'd argue it's impossible to prepare for every emergency,
and any approach reasonable to the PIC is fine w. me [and my
wife]...even if it proves insufficient. No one forces us into our
cockpits, after all. Further, most beginners aren't soaring during
conditions conducive to routinely beyond-the-norm risk of life...at
least not in my US-centric experience.) In any event, I suspect we
agree the considerations you correctly mention are not really THE
primary ones of any lowish-experience soaring pilot concerned about the
mechanics of OFLs (in which way I took the OP's post).
- - - - - -

The pilot stress level are considerably more going into a 'field'!

Maybe I'm abbie-normal, but I consider strange-airport landings not much
less stressful than OFL's...and in (say) the agricultural bits of the
Texas panhandle typically *more* so. In any event, I'm not a fan of
suggesting to lowish-time OFL-wannabes that airport-landings can be
approached with the same casual comfort factor their home-airport
landings are. Just me, perhaps...

Regards,
Bob - unabashed (20 OFLs') weenie - W.

On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 06:07:16 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

So, what do you call an outlanding? If you land at an established
airport/airfield is this an "Outlanding"?

The Freanch have a precise definition of an outlanding:
In French making an outlanding is called "aller aux vaches", "going to
the cows".

Since cows don't tend to on airfields...


Bye
Andreas

On Jan 27, 7:07*am, "
wrote:
So, what do you call an outlanding?

I log a "landout' any time I fail to land back at my point of takeoff,
or at my goal on rare straight out flights. I log off airport
landings separately as a subset of landouts. In my book every off
airport landing is a landout but the converse is not true.

I also keep track of landouts more than 50NM from point of departure.
FAA seems to attach more value to those than completed flights and
they saved me a bunch of money for my airplane commercial.

More than once I have arrived at an airport and elected to land in an
adjacent field because I thought it was safer.

Andy

On Jan 27, 8:07*am, "
wrote:
So, what do you call an outlanding? \

To me an outlanding is a landing where no one has landed an aircraft
before. If it's an airport than it's not an off airport landing
(which is what "outlanding" means to me). Landing at another airport
is no big deal unless it's some rarely used dirt strip with no known
characteristics or facilities and no sane pilot has landed there in
years and years. We don't have many of those in my usual terratory,
the midwest. Off airport landing causes the original Star Trek theme
to start playing in my head on final approach, "to boldly go where no
one has gone before". Once down it's up to me to make tie downs,
determine location and access, and deal with onlookers and crew. It's
an entirely different experience than landing at an airport. In
training I consider landing away at another airport just about useless
in preparing a student for "off airport" landing. Knowing it's an
airport eliminates a lot of doubt and stress. Once a student lands at
an unprepared field selected "on the fly" they know they are truly
ready to take on the challenge of cross country soaring.

MM

On Jan 27, 9:07 am, "
wrote:
So, what do you call an outlanding? If you land at an established
airport/airfield is this an "Outlanding"? Or is it an uncompleted
flight into an airport. I have read a lot of club SOP's that recommend
a "planned" outlanding into an airport as training for a real
outlanding! Not the same thing. Is this a recipe for trouble? Now I
know some of you fly where the only safe outlanding opertunities are
established airfields, i.e. the western portion of the US, but for the
rest of us these can be the choice of last resort. I I live and fly in
Sourthern Germany where outlanding fields are numerous and in the
Northern Alps the outlanding fields are identified and catalouged
(http://www.streckenflug.at/index.php?p=w_inhalt).

Bob
Waiting on the wave!

On a somewhat related note: the SSA contest application form
asks how many outlandings the pilot has done. Is this asking
for actual "non-airport" fields landed in, or airports other than
the intended destination?

I have to add that I know of several landouts by friends last year.
The only two that resulted in damaged gliders were both at
airports marked on the charts (one was being redeveloped for
housing, and the other had not been mowed all summer).