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#31
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Sec. of State Rice warns Russia about Bombers off Alaska
On Aug 20, 12:06*am, Dan wrote:
Rob Arndt wrote: On Aug 19, 9:02 pm, george wrote: On Aug 19, 6:35 pm, Tiger wrote: Rice warns Moscow about its bomber runs off Alaska As if that's never happened before. Unless they encroach upon US airspace there's not a lot can be done. Unless Conny wants to start WW3 So what? Sounds like Condi has more ****ing balls than you do. What do you do when a hunter with a rifle encounters a hostile bear? Drop his gun and get into the fetal position hoping it will just sniff around you and leave? No, you aim and shoot the ****er dead. People like you make me sick; you know, the ones that always wanna negotiate peace with terrorists, rouge nations, dictators, and anything of Slavic origin. Rob * *"Rouge nations?" Max Factor? Cover Girl? Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired Don't ask, don't tell... You know the ones, just look at their dress uniforms. |
#32
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Sec. of State Rice warns Russia about Bombers off Alaska
Jack Linthicum wrote:
On Aug 20, 9:44 am, Vincent wrote: Rob Arndt wrote: On Aug 19, 9:02 pm, george wrote: On Aug 19, 6:35 pm, Tiger wrote: Rice warns Moscow about its bomber runs off Alaska As if that's never happened before. Unless they encroach upon US airspace there's not a lot can be done. Unless Conny wants to start WW3 So what? Sounds like Condi has more ****ing balls than you do. What do you do when a hunter with a rifle encounters a hostile bear? Drop his gun and get into the fetal position hoping it will just sniff around you and leave? No, you aim and shoot the ****er dead. People like you make me sick; you know, the ones that always wanna negotiate peace with terrorists, rouge nations, dictators, and anything of Slavic origin. Rob Lets assume its a Grizzly and and you have a .22 That is what takes balls Vince On the other hand we have people who are still alive to testify as to the efficacy of shooting versus some other solution. I have nothing against shooting attacking bears The ludicrous suggestion is that it somehow takes "balls" to "aim and shoot the ****er dead". everyone who wants to shoot first assumes they are behind the trigger in a risk free environment Vince |
#33
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Sec. of State Rice warns Russia about Bombers off Alaska
frank wrote:
On Aug 20, 12:06 am, Dan wrote: Rob Arndt wrote: On Aug 19, 9:02 pm, george wrote: On Aug 19, 6:35 pm, Tiger wrote: Rice warns Moscow about its bomber runs off Alaska As if that's never happened before. Unless they encroach upon US airspace there's not a lot can be done. Unless Conny wants to start WW3 So what? Sounds like Condi has more ****ing balls than you do. What do you do when a hunter with a rifle encounters a hostile bear? Drop his gun and get into the fetal position hoping it will just sniff around you and leave? No, you aim and shoot the ****er dead. People like you make me sick; you know, the ones that always wanna negotiate peace with terrorists, rouge nations, dictators, and anything of Slavic origin. Rob "Rouge nations?" Max Factor? Cover Girl? Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired Don't ask, don't tell... You know the ones, just look at their dress uniforms. or undress uniforms Vince |
#35
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Sec. of State Rice warns Russia about Bombers off Alaska
Mark Borgerson wrote:
as i said, i'll definitely do it at the first good opportunity. it is not that simple, again. the very fact that i have to explain this is a good indication that i'm trying to have a conversation with a not very advanced (artificial?) intelligence... are you fimiliar with the concepts of "family", "friends", "house", "ties", "getting settled down" in some place? somehow i don't think so.... Can you afford a keyboard with a working shift key? and how do you think i type question marks and quotation marks? copy-paste from other texts? |
#36
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Sec. of State Rice warns Russia about Bombers off Alaska
Jack Linthicum wrote:
On Aug 20, 9:44 am, Vincent wrote: Rob Arndt wrote: On Aug 19, 9:02 pm, george wrote: On Aug 19, 6:35 pm, Tiger wrote: Rice warns Moscow about its bomber runs off Alaska As if that's never happened before. Unless they encroach upon US airspace there's not a lot can be done. Unless Conny wants to start WW3 So what? Sounds like Condi has more ****ing balls than you do. What do you do when a hunter with a rifle encounters a hostile bear? Drop his gun and get into the fetal position hoping it will just sniff around you and leave? No, you aim and shoot the ****er dead. People like you make me sick; you know, the ones that always wanna negotiate peace with terrorists, rouge nations, dictators, and anything of Slavic origin. Rob Lets assume its a Grizzly and and you have a .22 That is what takes balls Vince On the other hand we have people who are still alive to testify as to the efficacy of shooting versus some other solution. The Traveling Hunter Grizzly Defense What's the best way to defend yourself if you run into a grizzly while hunting--or if a grizzly tries to run into you? Nearly all authorities on the subject agree that the first two words to memorize in this regard are "pepper spray." I'm fully aware that some hunters associate pepper spray with politically correct, granola- eating, New Age, tree-hugger crapola. "Just give me my gun," these guys brag, "and I'll drop any charging griz like a sack of rocks." Other hunters are less fanatical on the subject, but simply have serious (and understandable) doubts about the efficacy of a spray can to stop one of the largest and most dangerous animals in North America. Doesn't it just make sense that a high-caliber bullet is more potent, and more effective in a life-or-death situation? It’s a reasonable question, and by no means should hunters dismiss the power and value of their firearms, as we'll discuss later. But as is so often the case when it comes to bears, the answer is more complex than it might first appear. Studies by biologist Stephen Herrero and others indicate that pepper spray works on charging bears about 90 to 96 percent of the time. Mark Matheny, a hunter who was seriously mauled by a grizzly several years ago while deer hunting north of Yellowstone Park, and who subsequently began a career devoted to bear self-defense and the manufacture of UDAP pepper spray, explains how a mere blast of cayenne aerosol can stop an angry griz: "First, with a charging bear the loud hissing and billowing cloud startles them, lessening or turning their aggressive intentions into a state of surprise or even defensive evasion. When a bear hits the wall of fog and breathes it in, his sense of smell is instantly shut down, which confuses any animal. Chemically, pepper spray is an inflammatory agent, an irritant, that gets into the bear's mucus membranes, causing temporary blindness, choking, and difficulty breathing. In many cases, they go off hacking and coughing." For those who believe a gun is still a better bet to stop a bear, Matheny adds: "Some people think a .44 magnum or large-caliber rifle is going to have the 'power' to stop a bear. But you're talking about a bullet not much wider than a writing pen hitting a vital area. That's assuming you even get a bullet off. Most times when someone with a firearm is attacked, they don't get a shot off. You've got to get the gun up, aim, and fire. With pepper spray, you can fire right from the holster, putting up a wide stream, even a fog, of deterrent. You can respond instantly and the likelihood of hitting the bear is much greater." Another compelling reason for the use of pepper spray instead of bullets is that many grizzly charges are not full "attacks," but are only attempts by the bear to discourage and intimidate human intruders. For instance, if you surprise a grizzly feeding on an elk carcass (possibly your elk carcass), the bear might charge without intending actual contact, its purpose being to simply drive you away. Of course, for those who aren't expert at reading bear behavior, it's fair to ask, "How am I supposed to know whether the bear means business or is just bluffing?" Which is precisely why pepper spray is a better alternative to a bullet in most situations. With the spray, you can very likely discourage the bear without worsening the situation or elevating it to an irreversibly deadlier level. If the bear breaks through the spray blast, and you're an armed hunter, you still have your gun as a last resort. But if a sprayed bear veers off, the encounter is over. No one is hurt. Conversely, if your first line of defense is a gunshot, and you shoot at the bear, the results will almost always be more severe. If the bear was only bluffing, you've now either killed or wounded a bear unnecessarily. Also possible is that by wounding it you've turned a bluffing bear into a seriously enraged one, intent on killing you. Another scenario: You shoot at an attacking bear and--because they come so fast, unbelievably fast if you've never experienced it, often catching you in utter surprise--you simply miss. The bear is on you. What you missed with bullets you could have easily hit with deterrent spray. But aren't there times when you should shoot, or perhaps must shoot? While pepper spray is generally considered the best primary, first- choice bear defense, you wouldn't want to make the same mistake as the hunter in Wyoming's Bridger-Teton National Forest who, when charged by a sow grizzly with three yearling cubs, allegedly threw his high- powered rifle at the bear and pulled out a can of pepper spray, which by that time failed to stop the attack. The hunter was mauled until his partner shot and killed the 475-pound animal. Later, from his hospital bed, the hunter said he didn't want to shoot the bear because he feared going to jail (for killing an endangered species) and losing his hunting privileges. The reality is, if a grizzly attacks, sometimes you have to shoot, and, further, you would be foolish not to. That is why I think of pepper spray as "the first line of defense, when feasible." If there's no time to hit the spray button (and with the canister mounted pistol-fashion on your belt, you can aim and fire from the hip in mere seconds), or if you spray and the bear keeps coming, you have little choice but to shoot. With a grizzly still far enough away to dissuade, you can try a shot into the air or into the ground near the animal, hoping the muzzle blast or bullet noise will stop or turn the charge. But with a close, fast-incoming bear, don't waste time with a warning shot. Aim for the deadliest point you can find. On a close-in, charging bear, this will probably be the face or upper chest. Often full-attack grizzlies lower their heads as they come in, so that's about all you have to aim at. More than one Alaskan guide of my acquaintance suggests aiming for the snout--a high shot goes into the upper skull or even over the top, into the neck or spine; and if the bear hops or you shoot low, you have a chance at the throat, chest, or even a shoulder or leg, all of which can stop the animal, if only long enough for you to aim and shoot again. Although this is legitimate self-defense, it clearly is not a desirable outcome. That is why Mark Matheny likes to tell hunters, "Spray 'em, don't slay 'em." He points out that too many close- encounter grizzlies are killed unnecessarily; which is not only bad for the bears, but also for hunting's already precarious social image. Long-time bear biologist Chris Servheen agrees, calling the unnecessary killing of grizzlies by sportsmen nothing less than "a threat to hunting." In the end, the ideal is to protect yourself while sparing the bears, whenever that's possible. --Anthony Acerrano What about the right to keep and arm bears? Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired |
#37
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Sec. of State Rice warns Russia about Bombers off Alaska
On Aug 20, 1:12 pm, Dan wrote:
Jack Linthicum wrote: On Aug 20, 9:44 am, Vincent wrote: Rob Arndt wrote: On Aug 19, 9:02 pm, george wrote: On Aug 19, 6:35 pm, Tiger wrote: Rice warns Moscow about its bomber runs off Alaska As if that's never happened before. Unless they encroach upon US airspace there's not a lot can be done. Unless Conny wants to start WW3 So what? Sounds like Condi has more ****ing balls than you do. What do you do when a hunter with a rifle encounters a hostile bear? Drop his gun and get into the fetal position hoping it will just sniff around you and leave? No, you aim and shoot the ****er dead. People like you make me sick; you know, the ones that always wanna negotiate peace with terrorists, rouge nations, dictators, and anything of Slavic origin. Rob Lets assume its a Grizzly and and you have a .22 That is what takes balls Vince On the other hand we have people who are still alive to testify as to the efficacy of shooting versus some other solution. The Traveling Hunter Grizzly Defense What's the best way to defend yourself if you run into a grizzly while hunting--or if a grizzly tries to run into you? Nearly all authorities on the subject agree that the first two words to memorize in this regard are "pepper spray." I'm fully aware that some hunters associate pepper spray with politically correct, granola- eating, New Age, tree-hugger crapola. "Just give me my gun," these guys brag, "and I'll drop any charging griz like a sack of rocks." Other hunters are less fanatical on the subject, but simply have serious (and understandable) doubts about the efficacy of a spray can to stop one of the largest and most dangerous animals in North America. Doesn't it just make sense that a high-caliber bullet is more potent, and more effective in a life-or-death situation? It’s a reasonable question, and by no means should hunters dismiss the power and value of their firearms, as we'll discuss later. But as is so often the case when it comes to bears, the answer is more complex than it might first appear. Studies by biologist Stephen Herrero and others indicate that pepper spray works on charging bears about 90 to 96 percent of the time. Mark Matheny, a hunter who was seriously mauled by a grizzly several years ago while deer hunting north of Yellowstone Park, and who subsequently began a career devoted to bear self-defense and the manufacture of UDAP pepper spray, explains how a mere blast of cayenne aerosol can stop an angry griz: "First, with a charging bear the loud hissing and billowing cloud startles them, lessening or turning their aggressive intentions into a state of surprise or even defensive evasion. When a bear hits the wall of fog and breathes it in, his sense of smell is instantly shut down, which confuses any animal. Chemically, pepper spray is an inflammatory agent, an irritant, that gets into the bear's mucus membranes, causing temporary blindness, choking, and difficulty breathing. In many cases, they go off hacking and coughing." For those who believe a gun is still a better bet to stop a bear, Matheny adds: "Some people think a .44 magnum or large-caliber rifle is going to have the 'power' to stop a bear. But you're talking about a bullet not much wider than a writing pen hitting a vital area. That's assuming you even get a bullet off. Most times when someone with a firearm is attacked, they don't get a shot off. You've got to get the gun up, aim, and fire. With pepper spray, you can fire right from the holster, putting up a wide stream, even a fog, of deterrent. You can respond instantly and the likelihood of hitting the bear is much greater." Another compelling reason for the use of pepper spray instead of bullets is that many grizzly charges are not full "attacks," but are only attempts by the bear to discourage and intimidate human intruders. For instance, if you surprise a grizzly feeding on an elk carcass (possibly your elk carcass), the bear might charge without intending actual contact, its purpose being to simply drive you away. Of course, for those who aren't expert at reading bear behavior, it's fair to ask, "How am I supposed to know whether the bear means business or is just bluffing?" Which is precisely why pepper spray is a better alternative to a bullet in most situations. With the spray, you can very likely discourage the bear without worsening the situation or elevating it to an irreversibly deadlier level. If the bear breaks through the spray blast, and you're an armed hunter, you still have your gun as a last resort. But if a sprayed bear veers off, the encounter is over. No one is hurt. Conversely, if your first line of defense is a gunshot, and you shoot at the bear, the results will almost always be more severe. If the bear was only bluffing, you've now either killed or wounded a bear unnecessarily. Also possible is that by wounding it you've turned a bluffing bear into a seriously enraged one, intent on killing you. Another scenario: You shoot at an attacking bear and--because they come so fast, unbelievably fast if you've never experienced it, often catching you in utter surprise--you simply miss. The bear is on you. What you missed with bullets you could have easily hit with deterrent spray. But aren't there times when you should shoot, or perhaps must shoot? While pepper spray is generally considered the best primary, first- choice bear defense, you wouldn't want to make the same mistake as the hunter in Wyoming's Bridger-Teton National Forest who, when charged by a sow grizzly with three yearling cubs, allegedly threw his high- powered rifle at the bear and pulled out a can of pepper spray, which by that time failed to stop the attack. The hunter was mauled until his partner shot and killed the 475-pound animal. Later, from his hospital bed, the hunter said he didn't want to shoot the bear because he feared going to jail (for killing an endangered species) and losing his hunting privileges. The reality is, if a grizzly attacks, sometimes you have to shoot, and, further, you would be foolish not to. That is why I think of pepper spray as "the first line of defense, when feasible." If there's no time to hit the spray button (and with the canister mounted pistol-fashion on your belt, you can aim and fire from the hip in mere seconds), or if you spray and the bear keeps coming, you have little choice but to shoot. With a grizzly still far enough away to dissuade, you can try a shot into the air or into the ground near the animal, hoping the muzzle blast or bullet noise will stop or turn the charge. But with a close, fast-incoming bear, don't waste time with a warning shot. Aim for the deadliest point you can find. On a close-in, charging bear, this will probably be the face or upper chest. Often full-attack grizzlies lower their heads as they come in, so that's about all you have to aim at. More than one Alaskan guide of my acquaintance suggests aiming for the snout--a high shot goes into the upper skull or even over the top, into the neck or spine; and if the bear hops or you shoot low, you have a chance at the throat, chest, or even a shoulder or leg, all of which can stop the animal, if only long enough for you to aim and shoot again. Although this is legitimate self-defense, it clearly is not a desirable outcome. That is why Mark Matheny likes to tell hunters, "Spray 'em, don't slay 'em." He points out that too many close- encounter grizzlies are killed unnecessarily; which is not only bad for the bears, but also for hunting's already precarious social image. Long-time bear biologist Chris Servheen agrees, calling the unnecessary killing of grizzlies by sportsmen nothing less than "a threat to hunting." In the end, the ideal is to protect yourself while sparing the bears, whenever that's possible. --Anthony Acerrano What about the right to keep and arm bears? Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired I understand it is the "keeping" that the difficult part often called "The Tall Pig" http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...&ct=image&cd=1 |
#38
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Sec. of State Rice warns Russia about Bombers off Alaska
On Aug 20, 6:44�am, Vincent wrote:
Rob Arndt wrote: On Aug 19, 9:02 pm, george wrote: On Aug 19, 6:35 pm, Tiger wrote: Rice warns Moscow about its bomber runs off Alaska As if that's never happened before. Unless they encroach upon US airspace there's not a lot can be done. Unless Conny wants to start WW3 So what? Sounds like Condi has more ****ing balls than you do. What do you do when a hunter with a rifle encounters a hostile bear? Drop his gun and get into the fetal position hoping it will just sniff around you and leave? No, you aim and shoot the ****er dead. People like you make me sick; you know, the ones that always wanna negotiate peace with terrorists, rouge nations, dictators, and anything of Slavic origin. Rob Lets assume its a Grizzly and and you have a .22 That is what takes balls Vince- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Bad analogy. If hunter is US vs Russian Bear the gun is anything from a .50 cal rifle to a 40mm Grenade launcher to a flame thrower. Where is the vaunted USAF which is able to defeat any foe, anwhere? Apparently not over Georgian skies but in hiding or under repair. Same for US ground and naval forces- former has no troops to send anyway as it cannot even manage Afghanistan nor Iraq nor US borders and the latter would be ineffectual.* Rob * Bush won't even send a hospital ship to the Black Sea. |
#39
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Sec. of State Rice warns Russia about Bombers off Alaska
Rob Arndt wrote:
On Aug 20, 6:44�am, Vincent wrote: Rob Arndt wrote: On Aug 19, 9:02 pm, george wrote: On Aug 19, 6:35 pm, Tiger wrote: Rice warns Moscow about its bomber runs off Alaska As if that's never happened before. Unless they encroach upon US airspace there's not a lot can be done. Unless Conny wants to start WW3 So what? Sounds like Condi has more ****ing balls than you do. What do you do when a hunter with a rifle encounters a hostile bear? Drop his gun and get into the fetal position hoping it will just sniff around you and leave? No, you aim and shoot the ****er dead. People like you make me sick; you know, the ones that always wanna negotiate peace with terrorists, rouge nations, dictators, and anything of Slavic origin. Rob Lets assume its a Grizzly and and you have a .22 That is what takes balls Vince- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Bad analogy. If hunter is US vs Russian Bear the gun is anything from a .50 cal rifle to a 40mm Grenade launcher to a flame thrower. Where is the vaunted USAF which is able to defeat any foe, anwhere? Apparently not over Georgian skies but in hiding or under repair. Where is the treaty or pact that requires or allows USAF involvement? For that matter, if you feel so strongly why aren't YOU volunteering? It's easy for you to accuse servicemen of being cowards since you you are safe behind your modem. Tell us how USAF involvement beyond what is currently going on would change things. Would it make you happy for the USAF to shoot down Russian aircraft? Same for US ground and naval forces- former has no troops to send anyway as it cannot even manage Afghanistan nor Iraq nor US borders and the latter would be ineffectual.* Rob * Bush won't even send a hospital ship to the Black Sea. It has been determined the Comfort isn't needed at this time, genius. Turkey hasn't said she would allow the Comfort to pass anyway. Are you aware the USAF is making several flights a day into Georgia with relief? I guess that doesn't count because you'd prefer war. Where are your heroes the Germans? Hiding under their beds? For that matter, have you ever said anything positive about the U.S. and when did you say it? Amazing how someone who has never had to face any risk in her life insults those who do it every day, isn't it? Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired |
#40
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Sec. of State Rice warns Russia about Bombers off Alaska
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