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Q on 250nm IR training X/C flight
On 8/15/2005 11:21, Peter wrote:
FAR 61.65 details this (A) A distance of at least 250nm along airways or ATC directed routing; I was told to measure the map distance between the airports, but I'm not sure this is correct. I was also told no to count the distance flown in, for example, a procedure turn, etc. For example, I was told that if during the leg that was to be at least 100NM, I had to divert to a different airport (due to weather) and the alternate was not 100NM from the start of that leg, then I do not meet the 100nm minimum. I'm sure others will interpret this differently, and I would be interested in seeing documentation to support that position. (B) An instrument approach at each airport; (C) Three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems. What happens if one has done the following (1) A 600nm airways flight with an IFR departure and an RV ILS, ATC directed. OK. One ILS approach... (2) A return (600nm) flight, as above, followed by a circling approach onto the opposite runway. A 'circling approach' is not an IFR approach. The Instrument Approach gets you to the airport area, where you can land straight-in, circle to land, execute a missed approach, etc. Also, I'm a little confused by 'opposite runway'. Is this the same airport at which you executed the ILS approach? Because I think it has to be three separate airports. Unfortunately the above is just one type of instrument approach. Upon return it was planned to do the other two kinds of instrument approaches at a nearby airport but bad weather prevented flying there. Is the above flying wasted for the 250nm flight requirement, or can one come back a week or two later and complete the other two approaches? I guess that will be up to your D.E. I think the flight is intended to be flown at one time, but others have argued that an overnight stop is not unreasonable. However, if you delay a week, how can you say this is one flight? You definitely want to make sure you have your ducks in a row before making this flight (as it's long and expensive). Keep in mind too that you need to consider the weather, and diversion to alternate airports and how that would affect your total trip mileage if that should happen. My options for the other two are NDB/DME NDB only Is that any good? The way I interpret the regs, you need to fly to three different airports (home, away #1, and away #2) and use a different IAP 'type' at each airport. The distance between two airports (along one leg) must be at least 100NM. If you have VOR with glide slope, then you can fly an ILS at one airport, a Localizer at another airport, and a VOR approach at the third (assuming the approaches at the airports will support this). I'm not sure if "NDB" and "NDB/DME" would be considered different approach types for the purposes of this flight, but I would think they would be. Also 61.65 does not say the flight has to be under the hood. It just says "under IFR". Is that correct? If you're in IMC, you don't need to wear the hood. If you're not in IMC, you need to simulate it through the use of a view-limiting device, like a hood. -- Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Student Sacramento, CA |
#2
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Mark Hansen wrote:
On 8/15/2005 11:21, Peter wrote: FAR 61.65 details this (A) A distance of at least 250nm along airways or ATC directed routing; I was told to measure the map distance between the airports, but I'm not sure this is correct. I was also told no to count the distance flown in, for example, a procedure turn, etc. For example, I was told that if during the leg that was to be at least 100NM, I had to divert to a different airport (due to weather) and the alternate was not 100NM from the start of that leg, then I do not meet the 100nm minimum. There is no requirement for a leg of at least 100NM. Just that the total of all the legs is 250NM. This is the requirement in its entireity: (iii) For an instrument -- airplane rating, instrument training on cross- country flight procedures specific to airplanes that includes at least one cross-country flight in an airplane that is performed under IFR, and consists of -- (A) A distance of at least 250 nautical miles along airways or ATC-directed routing; (B) An instrument approach at each airport; and (C) Three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems; |
#3
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On 8/15/2005 12:56, xyzzy wrote:
Mark Hansen wrote: On 8/15/2005 11:21, Peter wrote: FAR 61.65 details this (A) A distance of at least 250nm along airways or ATC directed routing; I was told to measure the map distance between the airports, but I'm not sure this is correct. I was also told no to count the distance flown in, for example, a procedure turn, etc. For example, I was told that if during the leg that was to be at least 100NM, I had to divert to a different airport (due to weather) and the alternate was not 100NM from the start of that leg, then I do not meet the 100nm minimum. There is no requirement for a leg of at least 100NM. Just that the total of all the legs is 250NM. This is the requirement in its entireity: Sorry, I'm using the Part 141 course which does require the 100NM leg, and I thought the Part 61 course required this also; I guess not... (iii) For an instrument -- airplane rating, instrument training on cross- country flight procedures specific to airplanes that includes at least one cross-country flight in an airplane that is performed under IFR, and consists of -- (A) A distance of at least 250 nautical miles along airways or ATC-directed routing; (B) An instrument approach at each airport; and (C) Three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems; -- Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Student Sacramento, CA |
#4
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There's no reason you can't do two approaches of different types at one
airport and a different type back home. I did an ILS, then went missed and came around for a VOR, then a LOC at the end of the return leg. Mark Hansen wrote: On 8/15/2005 11:21, Peter wrote: The way I interpret the regs, you need to fly to three different airports (home, away #1, and away #2) and use a different IAP 'type' at each airport. The distance between two airports (along one leg) must be at least 100NM. |
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On 8/15/2005 13:43, Yossarian wrote:
There's no reason you can't do two approaches of different types at one airport and a different type back home. I did an ILS, then went missed and came around for a VOR, then a LOC at the end of the return leg. That's true, but you have to go to three different airports anyway. Why not just do a different approach at each? However, my wording was incorrect. I said that you had to fly a different approach at each airport, and that's not a requirement; only that you have three airports, and (at least) three different IAPs. Mark Hansen wrote: On 8/15/2005 11:21, Peter wrote: The way I interpret the regs, you need to fly to three different airports (home, away #1, and away #2) and use a different IAP 'type' at each airport. The distance between two airports (along one leg) must be at least 100NM. -- Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Student Sacramento, CA |
#6
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My point is that nowhere does it say you have to go to 3 airports for
the long x-c. Only that you do 3 different types of approaches. Mark Hansen wrote: On 8/15/2005 13:43, Yossarian wrote: There's no reason you can't do two approaches of different types at one airport and a different type back home. I did an ILS, then went missed and came around for a VOR, then a LOC at the end of the return leg. That's true, but you have to go to three different airports anyway. Why not just do a different approach at each? However, my wording was incorrect. I said that you had to fly a different approach at each airport, and that's not a requirement; only that you have three airports, and (at least) three different IAPs. |
#7
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On 8/15/2005 15:45, Yossarian wrote:
My point is that nowhere does it say you have to go to 3 airports for the long x-c. Only that you do 3 different types of approaches. You know, I would have sworn I read 'three separate airports', but looking over it now, it's just not there. I guess I've been listening to my CFII too much and not reading enough for myself. Time to hit the FARs... Thanks for clarifying that. Mark Hansen wrote: On 8/15/2005 13:43, Yossarian wrote: There's no reason you can't do two approaches of different types at one airport and a different type back home. I did an ILS, then went missed and came around for a VOR, then a LOC at the end of the return leg. That's true, but you have to go to three different airports anyway. Why not just do a different approach at each? However, my wording was incorrect. I said that you had to fly a different approach at each airport, and that's not a requirement; only that you have three airports, and (at least) three different IAPs. -- Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Student Sacramento, CA |
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