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#1
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russia vs. japan in 1941 [WAS: 50% of NAZI oil..]
In article , "Bill
Silvey" wrote: Then there was the fact that the Reds did nothing while Japan massacred hundreds of thousands of Chinese in the '30s. Stalin only declared war on Japan *after* Japan had lost, just to gain Kamchatka. 100% fact. russia fought japan until the german invasion of russia. you don't have to look in obscure sources to find out about it. readers of rec.aviation.military are undoubtably familiar with the accounts of the flying tigers in china. these books describe the russian conflict with china in this period, both as mercenaries for china and direct conflict on the soviet border. |
#3
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wrote in message ... In article , "Bill Silvey" wrote: Then there was the fact that the Reds did nothing while Japan massacred hundreds of thousands of Chinese in the '30s. Stalin only declared war on Japan *after* Japan had lost, just to gain Kamchatka. 100% fact. russia fought japan until the german invasion of russia. you don't have to look in obscure sources to find out about it. While the Soviets gave some aid to the chinese communists and sent them some advisors it was minor and the only soviet military involvement was in the form of the Nomonhan incident in May1939 as a result of a Japanese incursion into Soviet territory. The Japanese were given such a beating that they hurriedly signed a non-aggression pact with the USSR which held until August 1945. Indeed in 1945 the Japanese peace faction were trying to contact the western allies via the USSR since it was a neutral. Keith |
#4
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wrote in message ...
In article , "Bill Silvey" wrote: Then there was the fact that the Reds did nothing while Japan massacred hundreds of thousands of Chinese in the '30s. Stalin only declared war on Japan *after* Japan had lost, just to gain Kamchatka. 100% fact. russia fought japan until the german invasion of russia. you don't have to look in obscure sources to find out about it. readers of rec.aviation.military are undoubtably familiar with the accounts of the flying tigers in china. these books describe the russian conflict with china in this period, both as mercenaries for china and direct conflict on the soviet border. Indeed. At Khalkyn Gol between May and September 1939 the Japanese were crushed by Zhukov, sustaining over 80,000 casualties to the Russians' 11,130. Within a single week the Japanses lost 25,000 men. The entire Japanese 6th army was completely destroyed. The Battle of Khalkin Gol was Zhukov's illustration of Deep Penetration tactics. The use of deception tactics, extremely fast tanks and mechanized forces to outflank an opponent's defenses, and the combination of aerial, airborne, and ground troops lead to the complete destruction of the Japanese 6th Army and to Japan's loss of a sphere of influence in the Mongolian and Far Eastern regions. This battle also featured the first successful use of air-to-air missiles. Five Polikarpov I-16 Type 10 fighters under the command of Capt. Zvonarev claimed destruction two Mitsubishi A5M by RS-82 unguided rockets. Historians describe a conflict within the Japanese military about whether to attack the USSR or the USA. The complete defeat att he hands of the Soviets made that decision: Pearl Harbor happened because the Japanese chose to attack the weaker foe. BM |
#5
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"The Black Monk" wrote in message
om... wrote in message ... In article , "Bill Silvey" wrote: Then there was the fact that the Reds did nothing while Japan massacred hundreds of thousands of Chinese in the '30s. Stalin only declared war on Japan *after* Japan had lost, just to gain Kamchatka. 100% fact. russia fought japan until the german invasion of russia. you don't have to look in obscure sources to find out about it. readers of rec.aviation.military are undoubtably familiar with the accounts of the flying tigers in china. these books describe the russian conflict with china in this period, both as mercenaries for china and direct conflict on the soviet border. Indeed. At Khalkyn Gol between May and September 1939 the Japanese were crushed by Zhukov, sustaining over 80,000 casualties to the Russians' 11,130. Within a single week the Japanses lost 25,000 men. The entire Japanese 6th army was completely destroyed. The Battle of Khalkin Gol was Zhukov's illustration of Deep Penetration tactics. The use of deception tactics, extremely fast tanks and mechanized forces to outflank an opponent's defenses, and the combination of aerial, airborne, and ground troops lead to the complete destruction of the Japanese 6th Army and to Japan's loss of a sphere of influence in the Mongolian and Far Eastern regions. This battle also featured the first successful use of air-to-air missiles. Five Polikarpov I-16 Type 10 fighters under the command of Capt. Zvonarev claimed destruction two Mitsubishi A5M by RS-82 unguided rockets. Historians describe a conflict within the Japanese military about whether to attack the USSR or the USA. The complete defeat att he hands of the Soviets made that decision: Pearl Harbor happened because the Japanese chose to attack the weaker foe. Great post! And, by choosing the eastern, Pacific route of expansion rather than the western, they ensured that the Navy rather than the Army would have precedence in the Japanese junta of the time. These guys made an absolute art-form of inter-service rivalry! Interesting to speculate what if they had pursued the western route instead. Of course if they and the Nazis had been proper allies instead of mistrustful (as well as untrustworthy!) basket cases, they'd have been having this discussion in late 1940 or so. Think Germany and Japan, working together in a coordinated way, could have beaten the Soviets without bringing the US or UK into the war? Germany has Barbarossa but without having Fall Gelb first. Japan consolidates in China then attacks Siberia. And then perhaps done Western Europe afterwards. Assume a 1938/9 understanding greater than actually happened. John |
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#7
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On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 00:08:25 +0100, John Mullen wrote:
Think Germany and Japan, working together in a coordinated way, could have beaten the Soviets without bringing the US or UK into the war? The UK entered the war because of the German invasion of Poland. If instead of this, Germany, Poland and Japan had ganged up on Russia, it's likely the UK would not have intervened. Ditto for the USA. -- "It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia (Email: , but first subtract 275 and reverse the last two letters). |
#8
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"The Black Monk" wrote in message om... Historians describe a conflict within the Japanese military about whether to attack the USSR or the USA. The complete defeat att he hands of the Soviets made that decision: Pearl Harbor happened because the Japanese chose to attack the weaker foe. Actually Pearl harbour happened because there was oil to the south and Japan needed it nobody knew about the Siberian oil reserves at the time.. Without that oil the gains made in China would collapse, the attack south was always meant to be a limited operation to secure resources, not to defeat the US and C'wealth - once secured, it was intended that the focus would move back to the main objective, China. |
#9
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yp11 wrote in
Then, in 1941 , when the Japanese Foreign Minister, Yosuke Matsuoka, visited Moscow shortly before the German attack on the Soviet Union, the two governments reached an agreement, called "a Neutrality Pact", providing that either side would remain neutral if the other were attacked by third parties. The Japanese kept their word and despite [...] On the other hand, Stalin broke the agreement with the Japanese as soon as this was convenient to him, i.e. immediately after the capitulation of Germany. In the final analysis Stalin didn't get much out of it, namely he got the possession of southern Sakhalin and the Kuriles. That's about all. The Americans prevented him from grabbing part of Manchuria which was his initial intent. There was the traditional sentimentality of the Americans about China which put them squarely on the side of China (not knowing that it would soon become Communist). Yuri I thought Stalin promised to attack Japan 3 months after May 9th, which is exactly what he did. In a way, he was trying to keep both his promises for as long as he could. Interestingly, though, if the Americans expected Stalin to attack within three months of May 9th, why would they be in such a hurry to drop the two nuclear bombs... Vassil |
#10
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