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#141
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Hey Dan,
Where are you coming from anyway? What is your point? You sound like you are on some kinda high horse? Sorry if you don't agree that Chief Warrant Officers should be commissioned and you think it is foolish, but where are you coming from and why? Did a CWO **** in your wheaties long ago? My personal view is that "Mustang" officers, (up through the ranks, pal) overall make the best leaders, with the experience of having been there and done that. And the upward transgression to more responsibilty, authority and accountability (and consequently better pay) is only logical. Your point about commissioning NCO's is silly, we already do commission NCO's in every service, here is what happens.....after they get commissioned, they are no longer NCO's, (NCO stands for NON-commissioned Officer). A top can get a commission, just as a Master Chief in the Navy can, but then they are no longer enlisted, or senior NCO's. I don't get where you were going with this. OBTW, yeah where did you get that "sir" thing for enlisted? I don't know about the other services, but if you call any kind of Chief in the Navy (E7-E9) sir, they will surely let you know the score! On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 06:03:04 -0500, Cub Driver wrote: Next thing you know, they'll be commissioning NCOs. Why? Why not? If a warrant officer can be a commissioned officer, so can Top. I notice that they're calling him "sir" these days. That used to get you 20 push-ups in the U.S. Army. A commissioned non-commissioned officer! That would be army-think at its finest. But really no more foolish than a commissioned warrant officer--a warrant, after all, being by definition something less than a commission. all the best -- Dan Ford email: see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com |
#142
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Kevin Brooks wrote:
"Cub Driver" wrote in message ... Next thing you know, they'll be commissioning NCOs. Why? Why not? If a warrant officer can be a commissioned officer, so can Top. Why? Similar levels of training, duties, and experience. Since the upper-level NCO is likely older and more experienced, he probably has better judgement, too. (NOT that I'm advocating this; who in their right mind would trade in a bunch of stripes for a funky lieutenant's bars?) I notice that they're calling him "sir" these days. That used to get you 20 push-ups in the U.S. Army. Where did you get *that* from? The proper form of address for Warrant Officers is "Mister". For NCOs it is "Sergeant", "Petty Officer", (or, in some services, "Chief", if applicable). |
#143
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I notice that they're calling him "sir" these days. That used to get you 20 push-ups in the U.S. Army. Where did you get *that* from? What, the push-ups? Basic training in Company G, 272nd Infantry Regiment, 69th Infantry Division, Fort Dix, NJ, January 1956. all the best -- Dan Ford email: see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com |
#144
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(NOT that I'm advocating this; who in their right
mind would trade in a bunch of stripes for a funky lieutenant's bars?) Oh, I wasn't suggesting that, any more than the CWO wears lieutenant's bars. Top would still wear his stripes. He would simply become a commissioned NCO. If it can work with a warrant, it can work with the E grades. Little plug here for the master of all newsreaders: I highly recommend Forte Agent as a newsreader. It handles newsgroup messages far better than any "included" newsreader such as those bundled with Internet Explorer, Outlook, Netscape, or Opera--all of which I have tried. Download the software at www.forteinc.com/agent/download.php The program includes the latest version of Agent as well as its freeware version, called Free Agent. This enables you to get the feel of the software without paying up front. However, where Agent really shines is in its ability to filter out objectional subjects or posters: Control+K and you're done! It was to get that functionality that I upgraded to the paid version a year ago, and I have never regretted it. The cost to register the software (and thereby to unlock the full-featured version on your computer) is $29. (A major revison is in the works. However, if you register the current version, the upgrade will be free.) all the best -- Dan Ford email: see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com |
#145
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"Dweezil Dwarftosser" wrote in message ... Kevin Brooks wrote: "Cub Driver" wrote in message ... Next thing you know, they'll be commissioning NCOs. Why? Why not? If a warrant officer can be a commissioned officer, so can Top. Why? Similar levels of training, duties, and experience. Since the upper-level NCO is likely older and more experienced, he probably has better judgement, too. (NOT that I'm advocating this; who in their right mind would trade in a bunch of stripes for a funky lieutenant's bars?) NCO's have their jobs, and very important ones at that--there is a reason they have oft been referred to as the "backbone" of whatever service is the subject of the discussion. Commissioned officers have their jobs as well, and NCO's traditionally don't really care to assume those duties (even the platoon sergeant forced to serve as platoon leader due to a shortage of LT's usually, in my experience, looks forward to getting a new LT if for no other reason than to reduce the amount of time he has to dedicate to apaerwork and meetings that he otherwise would not have to manage). The policy of commissioning CWO's to allow them more freedom of action, and to better utilize the total available officer manpower pool, in no way implies or justifies commissioning "non-commissioned" officers. I notice that they're calling him "sir" these days. That used to get you 20 push-ups in the U.S. Army. Where did you get *that* from? The proper form of address for Warrant Officers is "Mister". For NCOs it is "Sergeant", "Petty Officer", (or, in some services, "Chief", if applicable). Uhmmm--the poster was claiming that First Sergeants were the ones supposedly being called "sir", not warrants. And in the Army, the common form of address for CWO's is "chief", though you can also call them "Mister" the same as you do a "Wobbly One". Brooks |
#146
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"Cub Driver" wrote in message ... I notice that they're calling him "sir" these days. That used to get you 20 push-ups in the U.S. Army. Where did you get *that* from? What, the push-ups? No, the insane idea that first sergeants are being routinely called "sir". Brooks Basic training in Company G, 272nd Infantry Regiment, 69th Infantry Division, Fort Dix, NJ, January 1956. all the best -- Dan Ford email: see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com |
#147
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"fudog50" wrote in message ... snip Complete agreement with your words regarding the acceptability and wisdom of commissioning the CWO's, but... My personal view is that "Mustang" officers, (up through the ranks, pal) overall make the best leaders, with the experience of having been there and done that. IMO, that depends on how the "Mustang" made it to where he is. If you are talking LDO's in the Navy, sure. But coming from the Army side I have seen more than a couple of former enlisted or former NCO's have real problems making the transition to officer. Unlike those LDO's, however, and unlike the majority of WO/CWO's, a lot of those "prior service" LT's did not have all that many years of service under their belt when they made the switch (most are still in their early or mid twenties). I saw two characteristics pop up in the prior service junior officers all too often--they either wanted to micromanage thier platoons, thinking they were still NCO's somewhere in the back of their minds, or they were among the worst of the misguided "I'm an officer, therefore ever-so-much-superior to you" types when dealing with their troops and NCO's (thank goodness the latter was the less prevalent behavior). That does not describe all of them--but it does describe enough of them that it led to the observation being made by more than just your's truly. Brooks And the upward transgression to more responsibilty, authority and accountability (and consequently better pay) is only logical. Your point about commissioning NCO's is silly, we already do commission NCO's in every service, here is what happens.....after they get commissioned, they are no longer NCO's, (NCO stands for NON-commissioned Officer). A top can get a commission, just as a Master Chief in the Navy can, but then they are no longer enlisted, or senior NCO's. I don't get where you were going with this. OBTW, yeah where did you get that "sir" thing for enlisted? I don't know about the other services, but if you call any kind of Chief in the Navy (E7-E9) sir, they will surely let you know the score! On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 06:03:04 -0500, Cub Driver wrote: Next thing you know, they'll be commissioning NCOs. Why? Why not? If a warrant officer can be a commissioned officer, so can Top. I notice that they're calling him "sir" these days. That used to get you 20 push-ups in the U.S. Army. A commissioned non-commissioned officer! That would be army-think at its finest. But really no more foolish than a commissioned warrant officer--a warrant, after all, being by definition something less than a commission. all the best -- Dan Ford email: see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com |
#148
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Kevin,
I totally agree with you, it's all up to the individual and there are bad apples in every bushel. I, for one had a difficult time transitioning to the wardroom after being a Chief for 6 years, and never quite fit in with the rest of the J.O.'s, or the more senior 'O's. I was no longer accepted in the Chiefs Mess, and the J.O.'s feared me, and we had nothing in common. After about 2 years I finally found my niche, and it has been a great deal of fun! On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 17:39:31 GMT, fudog50 wrote: Cubby, Yeah I'm sure. On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 06:36:36 -0500, Cub Driver wrote: I think it's a hoot that a navy *warrant* officer should be commissioned, given that the whole point of the "warrant" was to create an officer who wasn't commissioned. The British navy used to have warrant officers, and probably devised the system. Thus the OED: "an officer in certain armed services (formerly also in the Navy) who holds office by a warrant, ranking between a commissioned officer and an NCO." Are you sure that what's on your wall is a commission and not a warrant? Both are pieces of paper. all the best -- Dan Ford email: see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com |
#149
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On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 16:36:03 -0500, Cub Driver
wrote: Whether it's a warrant or a commission doesn't matter nearly as much as how well you lead... My company commander in France was a major (well--it was a large company!). I was in a training company a t Ft. Rucker (1977) that had over 700 people in it. For a while I was a platoon leader, with the august rank of E-2. The other three platoon leaders were all E-6s. The C.O. was a captain, a mustang officer promoted from W.O. in RVN. There were no Lts in that company. [stuff snipped] Yet another case, a captain at Fort Bragg, was to have been RIFfed a week or so before he finished the twenty years (whatever) that would have enabled him to retire (when he did eventually retire) with a captain's pay and status, rather than the sergeant he was about to become. The captain checked into the hospital with some mysterious heart flutter (whatever). He was a very popular man, and several of us visited him there to wish him well. Of course there was nothing at all wrong with him. It seems that the army wouldn't bust a hospitalized man. Once he had passed the magic day, he meant to check out and take his reduction like a man. Strange story - the Army pays retirement money at the highest rank a person ever held, not the last rank they held. I once saw an Army Times retirement notice which listed a bunch of people newly retired, and one of them was an E-1! Maybe a typo, maybe not. And I knew two C.W.O.s that were riffed in the big "non-qualitative RIF" of 1976/77 who opted to stay in as E-5s. They later got their warrants back. One of them had 7,000 + hours on CH-47s alone. They retired with their warrant ranks. Warrants were very rare in the 1950s. I don't think I ever met a warrant officer during my two years in the army. (The major of course was shipped out to serve in another outfit.) Later, in Vietnam, I saw bunches of them, usually driving helicopters. They were there, you just didn't meet them. Of course there were many more during the Vietnam war. John Hairell ) |
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