? For Ed Rasimus

Ed Rasimus wrote:

On 03 Feb 2004 15:05:04 GMT, (Pechs1) wrote:

If it's not too much trouble, a list of VietNam air war books you would
recommend...thanks in advance-
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

Naturally, "When Thunder Rolled"!!!

Seriously, the question would have to be if you are seeking historical
data or memoirs.

In the historical side, I like John Sherwood's oral history, "Fast
Movers" although some folks panned it on Amazon saying it didn't deal
with enough USN stuff. I think there's a lot of A-4, A-7, A-6
coverage.

The best collection of ancedotes book on the naval (and Marine, a little) air war
in Vietnam that I've read is "Alpha Strike Vietnam: The Navy's Air War
1964-1973", by Jeffrey L. Levinson. Other than that, I largely concur with Ed's
list, although my opinions vary some from his in a few cases.

Marshall Michel's "Clashes" covers the MiG engagements, but is flawed
in that he doesn't name participants and only uses call-sign for
engagements. If you are familiar, you can discern Olds, Richie,
Cunningham, Madden and others.

Not a flaw, a deliberate decision to keep it impersonal owing to the large span
of time and number of engagements he was covering, and the fact that he was
trying to show operational and tactical trends, not determine who was the WGFP.

His second work, "Eleven Days of Christmas" is excellent. It really
highlights the bureaucratic snafus of SAC vs USAF on the Linebacker II
campaign as well as giving the NVN perspective of the battle.

Concur, especially with his comparison of claims and losses using _both_ sides'
sources, the only way a true historian should work if he's able. Last
correspondence I had with him, he was working on a Korean Air War book, with
access to the Soviet sources as well as U.S./allied ones.

Wayne Thompson's "To Hanoi and Back" may be the best overview of the
entire air war over NVN.

Haven't read that one yet, although I have had one negative review from someone
who felt it was far too much parroting the official line. Since Richard P.
Hallion was the co-author that wouldn't surprise me a bit -- I've found many of
his other books to suffer from the same problem. Unsurprising, as he is the
USAF's official historian, but I prefer historians who approach their subjects
doing a better job of restraining their inbuilt biases, and who have a more
cynical outlook towards the officially approved version, but question and check
all such claims. Like Marshall Michel, who demonstrates far more objectivity
than Hallion, at least has ever shown in his books that dealt with USAF
operations.

Jeff Ethell's "One Day in a Long War" which details the activity of
May 10, 1972, the start of Linebacker is great. You get the AF attack
on Doumer Bridge and Cunningham's three kills and bailout all in one
book.

Excellent book. Let's not forget to give credit to Dr. Alfred Price, Ethell's
co-author (they also collaborated on "Air War South Atlantic," doing a far better
job on covering the Falklands War from both sides shortly after it ended, than
anyone had a right to expect).

A great reference is Chris Hobson's "Vietnam Air Losses" which
chronologically lists all the fixed wing losses of the entire war with
names, tail numbers and a short account of the loss.

Zalin Grant's "Over the Beach" is a great USN book about operations
from Oriskany. John Nichols "On Yankee Station" is also excellent.

Agreed on both. And for a personal (and posthumous) memoir, "The Heart of a
Man," by Frank (and Marilyn) Elkins, is back in print. For a somewhat less
personal overview of Naval and Marine Air in Vietnam than "On Yankee Station,"
there's Mersky and Polmar's "The Naval Air War in Vietnam."

Some books I didn't like a
Broughton's "Going Downtown", but "Thud Ridge" is pretty good.

Personally, I preferred "Going Downtown" because Broughton could be less
elliptical than he had to be in Thud Ridge, but I agree that he does get
tiresome.

Ken Bell's "100 Missions North".

Liked it a lot more than you did, more than "Pak Six", but that's probably my
bias towards the historical and technological side of things.

John Trotti's "Phantom Over Vietnam"

Big disagreement between us here.

Karl Eschmann's "Linebacker"

I prefer Clodfelter's "Limits of Airpower," and of course Michels' "The Eleven
Days of Christmas."

Guy

Ed- OOOpppps! Not Boulder, I hope. BRBR

Yep, the People's Republic of Boulder, 35 square miles surrounded by reality.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 00:47:34 GMT, Guy Alcala
wrote:

Ed Rasimus wrote:

In the historical side, I like John Sherwood's oral history, "Fast
Movers" although some folks panned it on Amazon saying it didn't deal
with enough USN stuff. I think there's a lot of A-4, A-7, A-6
coverage.

The best collection of ancedotes book on the naval (and Marine, a little) air war
in Vietnam that I've read is "Alpha Strike Vietnam: The Navy's Air War
1964-1973", by Jeffrey L. Levinson. Other than that, I largely concur with Ed's
list, although my opinions vary some from his in a few cases.

--remainder snipped--

Might be a good time to let you all know that my second book is in the
can, ready to be shipped to the publisher (once again Smithsonian
Books.) Should be released in fall of this year. Cover my experiences
back at Korat in '72-'73 flying the F-4E.

Title is TBD at this time. I've submitted: "Palace Cobra: Fascination
With a War". The pointy heads at Smithsonian suggest: "Phantom
Flights, Bangkok Nights: A Vietnam Air Combat Pilot's Second Tour"

I think their title sucks. We'll see.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Marshall Michel's "Clashes" covers the MiG engagements, but is flawed
in that he doesn't name participants and only uses call-sign for
engagements. If you are familiar, you can discern Olds, Richie,
Cunningham, Madden and others.

Even worse, Michel admits that "not all of the call signs used . . . in
the engagement descriptions are the ones actually used on the missions . .
.. . a significant number, however, are generic ones." (Footnote on p. 8.)
I found this distracting and unsat. But as Mr. Rasimus notes if you are a
student of the SEA air war you can figure out who was flying in some of
the better known engagements. That said, I think there is much to
recommend this work. It is comprehensively researched using a decent
amount of primary source material and generally well written, with
endnotes citing authority and providing background throughout. The
appendix contains some basic performance data about the F-4 (although far
less than the Dash-1, which you can easily purchase these days). Finally,
there are numerous charts and graphics created especially for the book
that I found very helpful in understanding the three-dimensional world of
air-to-air combat.

His second work, "Eleven Days of Christmas" is excellent. It really
highlights the bureaucratic snafus of SAC vs USAF on the Linebacker II
campaign as well as giving the NVN perspective of the battle.

Concur. Another thing in this book that's good is the section where Michel
debunks several myths that have grown up around the Christmas Bombing
campaign, such as the supposed mutiny of SAC crews or the existence of
some special killer SAM site. (Two stories that find no support in the
historical record.) I would have liked to read more about Linebacker II
sorties flown by non-SAC assets such as TAC and the Navair, but I realize
that space limitations may have precluded this.

Zalin Grant's "Over the Beach" is a great USN book about operations
from Oriskany.

While this book does a great job describing ops by the Oriskany's air wing
during the crucial 1967 time period, it is also notable for going "behind
the scenes" as it were and describing the non-flying life of the men in
the F-8 squadron profiled. (VF-162? Not sure.) Gant doesn't flinch or
sugarcoat when he describes, for example, the liberty antics of "Belly"
Bellinger. Nor does he mimimize the tensions and conflicts among the
officers as they endure the tremendous pressure and depressing losses. In
my view, the combined coverage of both the operational and personal
aspects of squadron life make "Over the Beach" one of the top five books
about the SEA air war.

Elsewhere in this thread, somebody noted that "The Heart of a Man" by
Frank & Marilyn Elkins is back in print. This is the posthumously
published journal of a guy who was KIA (although carried MIA for years)
flying an A-4 in 1967. For this armchair naval aviator wannabe, Elkins'
writing brought home to me the amazing personal toll that the war took on
families. I defy you to read this one without crying. Also in the same
vein is Wynn Foster's book "Captain Hook." Like Gant's work, this book
mixes operational and non-operational detail well. And Foster's stories
about facing the burdens of command are interesting too. Finally, the
story of Foster's fight to stay on active duty after losing an arm is
excellent.

Getting off the beaten path I'll mention these books, some of which are
better than others:

"Rolling Thunder" by John T. Smith is fair but only worth reading after
you've read everything else.

"Cleared Hot" by Bob Stoffey describes land-based efforts by Marine
aviators flying A-4s and OV-10s. It's OK.

"U.S. Navy F-4 Phantom II MiG Killers" by Brad Edward and Peter Davies is
a two-volume work heavy on pictures. I personally liked the ready rooms
photos of victorious crews talking with their hands. But if you've been
there, done that you may disagree.

"Inside Hanoi's Secret Archives," by Malcom McConnell takes advantage of
research by a DIA guy named Ted Schweitzer, who was granted access to
North Vietnam's archives re the fate of downed American flyers. While
this book debunks the claims by some that live POWs remain captive to this
day, it is by no means sympathetic to the North Vietnamese in respect of
of their treatment of military men they captured.

"Vietnam Spook Show," by Wayne Care is a novel by a guy who served as a
linguist aboard EC-121s. Granted, it's fiction. But it's a tiny peek into
the black world of sigint and commint.

(Pechs1) wrote in message ...
Ed- OOOpppps! Not Boulder, I hope. BRBR

Yep, the People's Republic of Boulder, 35 square miles surrounded by reality.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

Damn! How'd they let you in there? I'm over in Greeley, and feel right
at home here with all the died-in-the-wool conservatives.
BTW there's a damn good book about FAC flying called "Above the Tree
Tops".
'Yankee Station" is ****hot but I bet you got that one.
Walt BJ

Walt- Damn! How'd they let you in there? I'm over in Greeley, and feel right
at home here with all the died-in-the-wool conservatives. BRBR

Snuck in one night..It's fun to tilt with some of the berry eaters around here
tho...Oldest son went to school at UNC...never could stand the 'aroma' from
there tho.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

On 07 Feb 2004 14:51:28 GMT, (Pechs1) wrote:

Walt- Damn! How'd they let you in there? I'm over in Greeley, and feel right
at home here with all the died-in-the-wool conservatives. BRBR

Snuck in one night..It's fun to tilt with some of the berry eaters around here
tho...Oldest son went to school at UNC...never could stand the 'aroma' from
there tho.
P. C. Chisholm

My wife picked up her second master's from UNC. Fortunately she did it
through a "distance learning" program. Only had to sniff at Greeley
twice--once for a weekend seminar course and once for the graduation
ceremony.

I like COS, but could probably function quite nicely in Ft. Collins.
Boulder doesn't quite hack it for me. Pretty at first glance, but then
the leftist leanings begin to overwhelm.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Paul Michael Brown wrote:

Marshall Michel's "Clashes" covers the MiG engagements, but is flawed
in that he doesn't name participants and only uses call-sign for
engagements. If you are familiar, you can discern Olds, Richie,
Cunningham, Madden and others.

Even worse, Michel admits that "not all of the call signs used . . . in
the engagement descriptions are the ones actually used on the missions . .
. . a significant number, however, are generic ones." (Footnote on p. 8.)
I found this distracting and unsat. But as Mr. Rasimus notes if you are a
student of the SEA air war you can figure out who was flying in some of
the better known engagements.

snip

I'd like to point that they weren't, strictly speaking, generic callsigns.
Where Marshall didn't use the actual callsigns, it was because he was working
from Red Baron event reports as opposed to other sources. Red Baron doesn't
use the actual callsigns; rather it assigns callsigns by type of mission, to
de-personalize the combats. So, all MiGCAP/escort flights are given names of
U.S. cities (Ocala, Boulder, Tucson, etc.), strike flights receive metal
element or alloy callsigns (Copper, Iron, Bronze, etc.) and all support
flights, e.g. chaffers, weasels and H/K, jammers etc., receive fish names
(Tuna, Trout, Marlin etc.) These callsigns are used once only in Red Baron,
so there's no duplication. Here's some typical Red Baron event listings
(picked out from the Red Baron III event summary) of otherwise well-known
combats:

"20. 10 May 1972/1055H
Tahoe: Four F-4Ds on MiGCAP, 01/03 COMBAT TREE equipped, engaged four MiG-21s
and destroyed three. While maneuvering on the fourth, Lead was downed by two
MiG-19s."

"27. 10 May 1972/1408H
Fallon: When two flak-suppression F-4Js engaged MiGs in the target area, Lead
bagged three -17s. On egress Lead was downed by a SAM."

Anyone familiar with the subject matter can immediately identify Oyster flight
(Lodge/Locher in 01, Ritchie/DeBellevue in 03, etc.) for "Tahoe" flight in
event 20, and "Cunningham/Driscoll in Showtime 100 with Grant/Sullivan on
their wing in Showtime ??", for "Fallon" flight in event 27.

Here's a slightly more obscure one:

"35. 20 May 1972/1300H
Indy: Four F-4Ds on MiGCAP were attacked by two MiG-21s. In a hard break, 02
went out of control and crashed."

Ritchie was in 01 (I don't know the actual flight callsign); this was his
wingman John Markle (Jim Williams was his WSO). Markle had also claimed a
kill on 10 May as part of Oyster flight.

Guy

"Guy Alcala" wrote in message
. ..
I'd like to point that they weren't, strictly speaking, generic callsigns.
Where Marshall didn't use the actual callsigns, it was because he was
working
from Red Baron event reports as opposed to other sources. Red Baron
doesn't
use the actual callsigns; rather it assigns callsigns by type of mission,
to
de-personalize the combats. So, all MiGCAP/escort flights are given names
of
U.S. cities (Ocala, Boulder, Tucson, etc.), strike flights receive metal
element or alloy callsigns (Copper, Iron, Bronze, etc.) and all support
flights, e.g. chaffers, weasels and H/K, jammers etc., receive fish names
(Tuna, Trout, Marlin etc.) These callsigns are used once only in Red
Baron,
so there's no duplication. Here's some typical Red Baron event listings
(picked out from the Red Baron III event summary) of otherwise well-known
combats:
snipped

For actual callsigns on the F-105 MiG kills see the table at:
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/7002/mig_kill.html . At least I think
they are the actual ones. Some were still in use when I was there later.

Tex

Tex Houston wrote:

"Guy Alcala" wrote in message
. ..
I'd like to point that they weren't, strictly speaking, generic callsigns.
Where Marshall didn't use the actual callsigns, it was because he was
working
from Red Baron event reports as opposed to other sources. Red Baron
doesn't
use the actual callsigns; rather it assigns callsigns by type of mission,
to
de-personalize the combats. So, all MiGCAP/escort flights are given names
of
U.S. cities (Ocala, Boulder, Tucson, etc.), strike flights receive metal
element or alloy callsigns (Copper, Iron, Bronze, etc.) and all support
flights, e.g. chaffers, weasels and H/K, jammers etc., receive fish names
(Tuna, Trout, Marlin etc.) These callsigns are used once only in Red
Baron,
so there's no duplication. Here's some typical Red Baron event listings
(picked out from the Red Baron III event summary) of otherwise well-known
combats:
snipped

For actual callsigns on the F-105 MiG kills see the table at:
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/7002/mig_kill.html . At least I think
they are the actual ones. Some were still in use when I was there later.

Yes, they are the actual callsigns (I've got the full list from "Aces and Aerial
Victories," which has all USAF kill claims). OTOH, Red Baron doesn't just list
US kills (from both services, unlike A&AV), it lists ALL A/A encounters whether
they resulted in kill claims for our side, the other side, both, or neither. So
you get listings such as the following:

"3. 15 Jan 1972/1630H
Denver: Two F-4Ds, Lead equipped with COMBAT TREE, were scrambled to attack a
single MiG-21; they fired a total of nine missiles with no damage observed."

"4. 17 Jan 1972/1735H
Phoenix: Two F-4Ds, Lead COMBAT TREE equipped, were scrambled to intercept two
MiGs in Barrel Roll (Laos). The MiGs fired three ATOLLS; no damage."

"13. 27 APR 1972/1736H
Norfolk: When GCI called 'merged plots,' two F-4Bs on MIGCAP turned to the
MIG's last known heading and were attacked from six o'clock; 02 was destroyed."

Guy