In-Flight Engine Failure

"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message ...
Well, it happended. I have owned the plane (Piper Turbo Arrow III) for
3 months and the engine failed during climb out on Tuesday. Altitude
was 4400 feet. Luckily, the engine did not entirely quit and I made it
to an airport within 10 miles. TBO was 1000 hours away. Dissapointing!
When we cut the oil filter, it was full of fairly large aluminum and
steel bits of metal. Arg!

What is wrong with this engine? The symptoms surely don't relate to
P leads or magneto wires.

Why not run a compression check on it? Take off the valve cover on
any suspicious cylinders. What's in there?

Take off the cylinder, if you figure out
that it's only one. See what's going on. What's the cam look like?

With the cylinder off, you can look inside the case for clues.

There are a lot of failures where you could do a repair and be back
in business--unless something got loose and whanged around inside.
The oil filter probably kept stuff out of the bearings.

It wouldn't be much of an investment in time to investigate. Plus,
we all want to know what busted!! Heck, you can even do this yourself.

It's a hard running engine.

Bill H

Oops..that should have said "8/20/03...."

O. Sami Saydjari wrote:

I presume they are TCM, but I am not certain. I left the logs with the
mechanic. In my appraisal, it says "8/20/02 Installation of six factor
new cylinder assemblies, part number 654970A4BP. Installed by
Maintenance Express."

-Sami

kage wrote:

What brand of cylinders are they?

I don't know about the "360" series cylinders, but I would NEVER put
Continentals on if there were any alternative. Continental makes only
junk
at this time and their reps are just paid liars.

Karl

Why not run a compression check on it? Take off the valve cover on
any suspicious cylinders. What's in there?

Well, I was traveling on business when the failure happened, I could
only spend the next morning with it before I had to be flown home
(commercially, arg!). Also the shop where I was had several fires
happening simultaneously and were short handed, so they were unwilling
to investigate beyond pull the spark plugs and cutting the oil filter.



Take off the cylinder, if you figure out
that it's only one. See what's going on. What's the cam look like?

Well, I am sending my A&P out there on Monday and I hope to learn these
details from him. I will report back. My skill level is not at the
point I could have easily done these things myself. Sorry to tease you
with scant description and not be able to provide the details.


With the cylinder off, you can look inside the case for clues.

There are a lot of failures where you could do a repair and be back
in business--unless something got loose and whanged around inside.
The oil filter probably kept stuff out of the bearings.

That would be nice. My A&P suspects that the bearings are likely
fouled, but we will find out.

It wouldn't be much of an investment in time to investigate. Plus,
we all want to know what busted!! Heck, you can even do this yourself.

Would it were so. Perhaps in a few years


It's a hard running engine.

Bill H

"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote:

Well, here is a little more detail. First, I experienced a 200 RPM
drop. No other obvious symptoms. Then, within 2 minutes, the RPM
dropped another 200 and MP pressure seemed to drop. I boosted throttle.
At that point, I was getting vectors to the nearest airport. Within
about 2 more minutes, I was down into the "yellow arc" of RPM...I think
it was about 2000 RPM. At that point the engine began running rough,
although the vibration was not that bad...just sounded very rough. Then
within about 5 miles of the airport, the oil pressure began dropping
into the yellow arc...35 PSI or so...and dropping. On turning final,
the engine was quite rough, and oil pressure was down to around 10-15
PSI (bottom of the yellow arc), after pulling off the run way, the oil
pressure was at the very bottom of the yellow arc...maybe 5 PSI. I
immediately shutdown. Does that help?

Well, you can rule out magneto problems being a factor here. If the temperatures were
going up at the same time, something in that engine was binding, and it was getting
ready to seize. The pressure drop would be caused either by a serious oil leak (you
would've noticed that) or rapid clogging of oil passages by metal particles. I think
it would not have kept running much longer.

George Patterson
This marriage is off to a shaky start. The groom just asked the band to
play "Your cheatin' heart", and the bride just requested "Don't come home
a'drinkin' with lovin' on your mind".

If the temperatures were
going up at the same time, something in that engine was binding, and it was getting
ready to seize.

As I recall, the temperature remained in the green.

The pressure drop would be caused either by a serious oil leak (you
would've noticed that) or rapid clogging of oil passages by metal particles.

Right. I immediately checked the oil after landing and it was at 7.5
quarts, just where it was on take-off.

I think
it would not have kept running much longer.

Good to know


George Patterson
This marriage is off to a shaky start. The groom just asked the band to
play "Your cheatin' heart", and the bride just requested "Don't come home
a'drinkin' with lovin' on your mind".

Why,

If you check the left and then the right mag, you know that both of them will
ground out properly without risking damage due to a backfire. The only thing
that individually checking the mags won't find is a switch that is defective
in the off position only, pretty unlikely. If you are that paranoid about the
switch, you can check it with an ohmmeter with the engine stopped.

Orval Fairbairn wrote:

Very unlikely -- all the P-lead break does is prevent you from shutting
down that mag. It is a good idea to pefrorm a "both off" check when
doing a mag check. That way, you will be able to find a broken P-lead.

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

If it were me, and knowing that the oil pressure dropped off to near zero, plus all the metal, I would not
opt for anything less than a complete overhaul. Even if the obvious damage is isolated to one cylinder, you
don't know what damage the low oil pressure and all that metal did elsewhere. It would really suck to spend
a bunch of cash on a fix only to have it happen again. Besides, right now, the cost of an overhaul is
relatively low compared to the prices over the last few years. If there were no metal, and the oil pressure
hadn't dropped, then maybe, but not under those circumstances.

Bill Hale wrote:


There are a lot of failures where you could do a repair and be back
in business--unless something got loose and whanged around inside.
The oil filter probably kept stuff out of the bearings.

It wouldn't be much of an investment in time to investigate. Plus,
we all want to know what busted!! Heck, you can even do this yourself.

It's a hard running engine.

Bill H

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

Ray Andraka wrote:
Why,

If you check the left and then the right mag, you know that both of them will
ground out properly without risking damage due to a backfire. The only thing
that individually checking the mags won't find is a switch that is defective
in the off position only, pretty unlikely. If you are that paranoid about the
switch, you can check it with an ohmmeter with the engine stopped.

Many (OK, some) ignition switches have an AD with a recurring inspection
requirement that requires testing the OFF position every 100 hours. AD 76-07-12


Orval Fairbairn wrote:


Very unlikely -- all the P-lead break does is prevent you from shutting
down that mag. It is a good idea to pefrorm a "both off" check when
doing a mag check. That way, you will be able to find a broken P-lead.


--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759




--
Dave Butler, software engineer 919-392-4367

On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 10:44:20 -0500, "O. Sami Saydjari"
wrote:



Congrats on your cool head and piloting job.....

Thank you. I am a better pilot today because of this experience. The
good news is that I have my (hopefully) once-in-a-flying-career engine
failure behind me

IF you ever have a *zero* mag drop. Don't congratulate
yourself on the condition of the electrical system.... it means you
have a broken "P" lead. A dangerous condition.

I agree. But distinguishing between a 25 RPM mag drop and a zero mag
drop, especially when the RPM needle normally is vibrating a bit, can be
hard (at least for me).

In addition to the RPM - you should be able to hear the mag drop - not
a precise indicator but certainly enough to confirm whether or not the
mag is grounded.

-Nathan

On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 09:01:16 -0400, Dave Butler
wrote:

Ray Andraka wrote:
Why,

If you check the left and then the right mag, you know that both of them will
ground out properly without risking damage due to a backfire. The only thing
that individually checking the mags won't find is a switch that is defective
in the off position only, pretty unlikely. If you are that paranoid about the
switch, you can check it with an ohmmeter with the engine stopped.

Many (OK, some) ignition switches have an AD with a recurring inspection
requirement that requires testing the OFF position every 100 hours. AD 76-07-12

Yep, and you can tell when the mechanic is testing the Bendix switch
by the backfires outside his hangar.