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  #1  
Old July 10th 07, 04:06 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting
Kobra[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2
Default flaps

Aviators,

My wife and I flew to Williamsburg (JGG) in our 177RG on Sat. and stayed
until Sunday.

On base at Williamsburg I noticed that the airspeed was really high. I
raised the nose and pulled some power. I had 20 degrees of flaps in and
that is what I usually land with. On final the airspeed was just coming out
of the green and touching the white arc with only 15 inches manifold
pressure. On short final I dropped the last 10 degrees, but despite that,
man I came across the threshold like a bat-out-of-hell.

The runway was only 3000 feet, but somehow I got it down and stopped after
heavy brake burning. I just figured I used some really bad technique or
picked up a tailwind.

I looked at the wind sock and it was stone dead and limp.

On my pre-flight for the trip home I found out why all this happened.
Sometime after lift-off to JGG the flaps went TU. I had no flaps on landing
and I never noticed!! I can hardly believe I don't consciencely or
unconsciencely look to see if the flaps are deploying. Why didn't I notice
that the flap indicator didn't move or that the plane didn't change pitch or
that it didn't push me against the shoulder harness as usual. I just didn't
catch the fact that no flaps came out.

Now I had to get home. I called my mechanic and he said it could be many
things (it wasn't the breaker). He also said I was a complete wimp (he used
a different word that began with a p) if I couldn't land that plane without
the flaps on our 3,500 feet of runway.

I took off and started to ponder the situation:

No flaps
No daylight with 3 miles vis. in haze and mist (ASOS said 10 miles but no
way could you see more than 3 miles)
No landing light (it burned out two weeks ago)
No wind (so no headwind to help slow the airplane's ground speed on landing)
and I've done a grand total of two no-flap landings in my life. One with my
primary CFI and one during my check out when I bought the plane. Both
during the day with a headwind.

Well, obviously everything went fine and I exited on the second taxiway off
19 at N14, my homebase. I landed as slow as I could, but the nose was so
high that seeing ahead of the airplane was almost impossible.

I used runway 19 because runway 1 has trees on the approach and I wanted to
come in as flat as possible.

Anyway...how many different things can cause this? Where should I start
looking?

I also recommend that everyone do some no flap landings each year.

Kobra


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  #2  
Old July 10th 07, 06:16 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting
Aluckyguess
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 276
Default flaps

I land without flaps all the time when I am buy my self. I think I land
smother. I have done this in my Cherokee 180, BE 35, A36 and a skipper I
trained in for a short time.
"Kobra" wrote in message
. ..
Aviators,

My wife and I flew to Williamsburg (JGG) in our 177RG on Sat. and stayed
until Sunday.

On base at Williamsburg I noticed that the airspeed was really high. I
raised the nose and pulled some power. I had 20 degrees of flaps in and
that is what I usually land with. On final the airspeed was just coming
out of the green and touching the white arc with only 15 inches manifold
pressure. On short final I dropped the last 10 degrees, but despite that,
man I came across the threshold like a bat-out-of-hell.

The runway was only 3000 feet, but somehow I got it down and stopped after
heavy brake burning. I just figured I used some really bad technique or
picked up a tailwind.

I looked at the wind sock and it was stone dead and limp.

On my pre-flight for the trip home I found out why all this happened.
Sometime after lift-off to JGG the flaps went TU. I had no flaps on
landing and I never noticed!! I can hardly believe I don't consciencely
or unconsciencely look to see if the flaps are deploying. Why didn't I
notice that the flap indicator didn't move or that the plane didn't change
pitch or that it didn't push me against the shoulder harness as usual. I
just didn't catch the fact that no flaps came out.

Now I had to get home. I called my mechanic and he said it could be many
things (it wasn't the breaker). He also said I was a complete wimp (he
used a different word that began with a p) if I couldn't land that plane
without the flaps on our 3,500 feet of runway.

I took off and started to ponder the situation:

No flaps
No daylight with 3 miles vis. in haze and mist (ASOS said 10 miles but no
way could you see more than 3 miles)
No landing light (it burned out two weeks ago)
No wind (so no headwind to help slow the airplane's ground speed on
landing)
and I've done a grand total of two no-flap landings in my life. One with
my primary CFI and one during my check out when I bought the plane. Both
during the day with a headwind.

Well, obviously everything went fine and I exited on the second taxiway
off 19 at N14, my homebase. I landed as slow as I could, but the nose was
so high that seeing ahead of the airplane was almost impossible.

I used runway 19 because runway 1 has trees on the approach and I wanted
to come in as flat as possible.

Anyway...how many different things can cause this? Where should I start
looking?

I also recommend that everyone do some no flap landings each year.

Kobra



  #3  
Old July 10th 07, 06:43 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting
Robert M. Gary
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,767
Default flaps

On Jul 9, 10:16 pm, "Aluckyguess" wrote:
I land without flaps all the time when I am buy my self. I think I land
smother. I have done this in my Cherokee 180, BE 35, A36 and a skipper I
trained in for a short time."Kobra" wrote in message

. ..



Aviators,


My wife and I flew to Williamsburg (JGG) in our 177RG on Sat. and stayed
until Sunday.


On base at Williamsburg I noticed that the airspeed was really high. I
raised the nose and pulled some power. I had 20 degrees of flaps in and
that is what I usually land with. On final the airspeed was just coming
out of the green and touching the white arc with only 15 inches manifold
pressure. On short final I dropped the last 10 degrees, but despite that,
man I came across the threshold like a bat-out-of-hell.


The runway was only 3000 feet, but somehow I got it down and stopped after
heavy brake burning. I just figured I used some really bad technique or
picked up a tailwind.


I looked at the wind sock and it was stone dead and limp.


On my pre-flight for the trip home I found out why all this happened.
Sometime after lift-off to JGG the flaps went TU. I had no flaps on
landing and I never noticed!! I can hardly believe I don't consciencely
or unconsciencely look to see if the flaps are deploying. Why didn't I
notice that the flap indicator didn't move or that the plane didn't change
pitch or that it didn't push me against the shoulder harness as usual. I
just didn't catch the fact that no flaps came out.


Now I had to get home. I called my mechanic and he said it could be many
things (it wasn't the breaker). He also said I was a complete wimp (he
used a different word that began with a p) if I couldn't land that plane
without the flaps on our 3,500 feet of runway.


I took off and started to ponder the situation:


No flaps
No daylight with 3 miles vis. in haze and mist (ASOS said 10 miles but no
way could you see more than 3 miles)
No landing light (it burned out two weeks ago)
No wind (so no headwind to help slow the airplane's ground speed on
landing)
and I've done a grand total of two no-flap landings in my life. One with
my primary CFI and one during my check out when I bought the plane. Both
during the day with a headwind.


Well, obviously everything went fine and I exited on the second taxiway
off 19 at N14, my homebase. I landed as slow as I could, but the nose was
so high that seeing ahead of the airplane was almost impossible.


I used runway 19 because runway 1 has trees on the approach and I wanted
to come in as flat as possible.


Anyway...how many different things can cause this? Where should I start
looking?


I also recommend that everyone do some no flap landings each year.


Kobra- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


W/o flaps you will land in a more nose high attitude, which tends to
make for smoother landings, in my experience.
'
-Robert, CFII

  #4  
Old July 10th 07, 07:43 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting
Ben Jackson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 90
Default flaps

On 2007-07-10, Kobra wrote:

On base at Williamsburg I noticed that the airspeed was really high. I
raised the nose and pulled some power.


Right about here my brain started screaming, PUT THE GEAR DOWN!

--
Ben Jackson AD7GD

http://www.ben.com/
  #5  
Old July 10th 07, 11:43 AM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting
kontiki
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 479
Default flaps

Get a real A&P to check out the flap situation. If its
not the breaker it could be the flap motor (one of the
reasons I do like manual flaps).

As far as why you didn't notice that your flaps were
not working... well... that is disturbing. I notice
*every* little sound, motion, vibration or whatever in
my airplane.

I hardly ever land with full flaps unless its a short
field.
  #6  
Old July 10th 07, 12:22 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting
Dan Luke[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 713
Default flaps


"Ben Jackson" wrote:


On base at Williamsburg I noticed that the airspeed was really high. I
raised the nose and pulled some power.


Right about here my brain started screaming, PUT THE GEAR DOWN!


LOL! Same here.

--
Dan
T-182T at BFM


  #7  
Old July 10th 07, 01:51 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting
Roy Smith
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 478
Default flaps

"Kobra" wrote:
On base at Williamsburg I noticed that the airspeed was really high. I
raised the nose and pulled some power. I had 20 degrees of flaps in and
that is what I usually land with. On final the airspeed was just coming out
of the green and touching the white arc with only 15 inches manifold
pressure. On short final I dropped the last 10 degrees, but despite that,
man I came across the threshold like a bat-out-of-hell.


Then you should have gone around. Plan every approach to be a go-around,
and only make the decision to land when you get to the threshold and
everything is good.

10 kts too fast over the threshold is pretty significant. I don't fly the
177RG, but I found a checklist on the net that lists normal landing speeds
at 60-70 kts and Vfe (top of the white arc, which is what you said you were
doing on final) as 95. That's 25-35 kts too fast to land. I'm amazed you
managed to get it stopped in 3000 feet. In fact, I can't believe you were
really going that fast over the threshold, it's just not possible.

The runway was only 3000 feet, but somehow I got it down and stopped after
heavy brake burning. I just figured I used some really bad technique or
picked up a tailwind.


A tailwind will increase your groundspeed, but not your airspeed.

Now I had to get home. I called my mechanic and he said it could be many
things (it wasn't the breaker). He also said I was a complete wimp (he used
a different word that began with a p) if I couldn't land that plane without
the flaps on our 3,500 feet of runway.


From a strictly legal point of view, if you knew the flaps were broken, the
plane was not airworthy. From a safety point of view, however, I'd say you
did the right thing by consulting a mechanic to get an experienced opinion.
Technically, you needed a ferry permit to take off again, and your mechanic
using the p-word on the phone doesn't quite qualify. But I digress.

I took off and started to ponder the situation:


The pondering should have happened before you took off. Once you're in the
air, you can ponder all you want, but you still need to land the airplane.

No flaps
No daylight with 3 miles vis. in haze and mist (ASOS said 10 miles but no
way could you see more than 3 miles)
No landing light (it burned out two weeks ago)
No wind (so no headwind to help slow the airplane's ground speed on landing)
and I've done a grand total of two no-flap landings in my life. One with my
primary CFI and one during my check out when I bought the plane. Both
during the day with a headwind.


From a pure performance point of view, your mechanic was right. With
proper technique, landing a 177RG on 3500 feet without flaps and zero wind
should be a no-brainer. Even on a hot a muggy summer day like it was this
weekend, there's plenty of performance margin to make it a non-event if you
know how to do it.

But, at night, in poor visibility, with no landing light to help you judge
your height above the runway, and having never practiced them seems like
the wrong time to be learning. None of these things are serious by
themselves, but it sounds like it all adds up to a case of get-home-itis to
me.

I used runway 19 because runway 1 has trees on the approach and I wanted to
come in as flat as possible.


That sounds like a good decision.

Anyway...how many different things can cause this? Where should I start
looking?


Piper and Cessna took interesting divergent paths when they designed their
airplanes. Piper decided they were going to use electric trim and manual
flaps. Cessna decided on electric flaps and manual trim. In both cases,
each manufacturer added one totally unnecessary electric system and thus
saddled their owners with forever pouring money into fixing them. Maybe
the high-wing design made it difficult to engineer a manual flap control
linkage? In any case, if it's not the breaker, if could be the actuator
switch, the motor, one of the micro-switches that limit movement, or any of
the wiring in between. Just bring it to your mechanic with your checkbook
and let him put another kid through college :-)

I also recommend that everyone do some no flap landings each year.


Indeed. If you fly something with electric flaps where flap failures are a
way of life, maybe a lot more often than that. With practice, no-flaps
landings in a 177 should be a piece of cake. Slips help, so practice those
too.
  #8  
Old July 10th 07, 02:34 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting
texasflyer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13
Default flaps

On Jul 10, 6:22 am, "Dan Luke" wrote:
"Ben Jackson" wrote:

On base at Williamsburg I noticed that the airspeed was really high. I
raised the nose and pulled some power.


Right about here my brain started screaming, PUT THE GEAR DOWN!


LOL! Same here.

--
Dan
T-182T at BFM


My brain would've been screaming: GO AROUND! GO AROUND!

  #9  
Old July 10th 07, 02:37 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting
Tina
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 500
Default flaps

It also seems you planned a nighttime arrivial with a known burned out
landing light.

Little mistakes have a way of compounding themselves. You may want to
sit in a quiet place and think about your go - no go criteria for a
while. The two best outcomes of all of this is you made a safe trip,
and you have an opportunigy to make future trips safer.



  #10  
Old July 10th 07, 02:48 PM posted to rec.aviation.owning,rec.aviation.piloting
Longworth[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 145
Default flaps

Kobra,
I have not flown a C177RG but have often practiced landings with
different flap configurations in my C177B. Being 5'2", it is
impossible for me to see over the cowling when landing with no flaps
in a Cardinal. I have to rely on peripheral vision for such landings.
We had problem with our flaps once but it was the opposite with the
flaps stuck at 10 degrees position. As I recalled, it was a broken
wire inside the plane. The switches in the wings were OK. You can do
a search for flap problem in the Cardinal Flyers Virtual Digest. The
Tech section also have some information on flaps.

Hai Longworth

 




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