ASW 24 WL for beginner ?

In article ,
Ray Lovinggood wrote:

Ask the instructors about other gliders, as well, but
also find out if the ship you are leaning towards has
a CG hook or a nose hook. Flying aero-tow with a CG
hook may (will!) be a bit trickier than flying aero-tow
with a nose hook. If you get a ship with a CG hook
and you launch via aero-tow, make sure you can learn
all you can from the instructors before you make that
first launch.

Or fly a two seater with a CG hook.

I fly a Janus with a CG hook. I know that you need to be very careful
not to get too high, least it start to "winch launch" behind the
towplane, but frankly I don't think the CG hook makes it noticably
harder to fly a normal aerotow than, say, a Grob Twin.

The very sensitive and light all-flying tailplane, on the other hand,
does keep you awake -- it's a *far* bigger factor than the CG hook.

The biggest annoyance actually is that unless you're reasonably high
behind the tug the rope tends to catch a little on the nosewheel and
make a twang as it passes from side to side.

-- Bruce

Depends where you are.

There are winches at every club I have ever visited in South Africa.
At my club we gave up on Aerotow 8 years ago.
It is expensive.
It is slow.
It is more dangerous in some ways.
We have predictable enough thermals that we have very low 'relight'
incidence.

That said, you need aerotow when you have long wings, or are carrying
water or need the height or physical displacement to be able to contact
lift. The nose hooks on our gliders are pristine, make us an offer...

Stephen Szikora wrote:
Why wouldn't you "go that far"?

Every glider should be equipped with a nose hook. In today's world, how
many of us will ever fly off a winch? The nose hook should be standard with
the c of g hook optional, not the other way around! We should insist on
nose hooks on all new gliders and stop letting our knuckle-dragging egos
cling to the past.


This is what prompted the LBA to mandate the installation of nose hooks

for

airtow in Germany. I wouldn't go that far, but replacing the tug's
Schweitzer hook that can't be released under a strong up-load with a Tost
hook that can makes a lot of sense.

Bill Daniels

I flew about 1000h in my ASW24.
I never had a wing down situation at the start with equally loaded ballast.
I always take off with the brakes pulled
- not to over roll the rope on asphalt
- to give more control to the ailerons
- have lass influence of propeller gusts with side wind
I cannot understand that mostly only competition pilots use this start
procedure.
If the aileron response is too sluggish in circling, then your circle speed
is too low. The ASW24 only climbs well, if you fly it at least 10km/h
above stall speed.
I modified my ASW24 before the WGC1995 in Omarama NZ to B
profiling and attached the winglets. I always flew the ASW24 about
3-5kg/m2 lighter than my friends did with Discus, DG300....
In this configuration I climbed the same, but still glided better above
150km/h.

The ASW24 cannot be flown like an LS4 - pull in the climb until it
shakes and then let go a bit. It needs more training to fly the ship
properly, to get the performance it has.
You also have to fly proper yaw. All slender fuselage designs need to
be flown within less yaw tolerance to keep the airflow along the
airframe turbulence "free".
With properly installed winglets you take the feet off the pedals and
the 24 centres yaw itself (that works for quite all winglet gliders).

Beginners must be told, that the 24 does not shake the elevator before
stalling. But the stalling behaviour within the proper CG is forgiving.
The glider is easy to fly, but needs to be flown more precisely to have
fun. The 24 has good stability and damping behaviour. You can trim
it, let go the stick "and eat a sandwich" (I would not try in a Discus).

Chris Hostettler


"Robert Ehrlich" wrote in message
...
Harry wrote:

would you recommend this ship for a recently licensed pilot ??? comments
welcome!

regards
Harry

We had 2 ASW24 in my club, I had flights in both, one of them has winglets
and not
the other one. This last one was recently destroyed in an accident. I find
some
pecularities of these gliders are not really suited for beginners, but
they are
nevertheless very good and safe gliders, as proven by the fact that the
pilot
who had the accident was able to walk out of the glider and ask for help
at the next
house. What I dislike in these gliders is the lack of efficiency of the
ailerons
at low speed, probably due to their small size, especially at the
beginning of ground
roll, where they have a marked tendency to drop a wing. The fact that they
have only
a CG hook (but maybe specific to the 2 in my club) doesn't help. Beside
that this
ship is a relatively high performance ship and as a consequence, as in any
such ship,
speed increases quickly with nose down attitude, which may make speed
control difficult
for a beginner. In my club there is a sequence of glider types through
which you have
to go as your experience grows, namely ASK21, ASK23, LS4, Pegase, ASW24,
Discus, LS6.
There is not a true transition between ASW24 and Discus, they are
considered as equivalent
as far as pilot's skill and experience is concerned, however I find the
Discus is easier
to fly than the ASW24. The pilot who had the accident is the owner of a
Ventus 2a he
could not fly this day because a missing annual and some people suggested
that one of
the factor lending to the accident was his lack of training on a ship with
a handling
significantly different from his usual glider.

I have an LS4 with a belly hook and have had "moments" aerotowing from
a hard runway with a crosswind component where the metal tailskid
allowed the glider's tail to weathercock very easily. Last year's
Christmas present was a tailwheel to replace the skid and the
directional control on the ground is much improved.

Martin

Joe Lacour wrote in message ...
I have recently bought an LS-4A with a CG hook. What kind of problems
did you have with aero-towing with a DG hook?

Joe

On Tuesday, July 22, 2003, at 05:15 PM, Glider Pilot Network wrote:

------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroup: rec.aviation.soaring
Subject: ASW 24 WL for beginner ?
Author: Dhofstee
Date/Time: 22:10 22 July 2003
------------------------------------------------------------
Ray Lovinggood wrote:
If you get a ship with a CG hook
and you launch via aero-tow, make sure you can learn
all you can from the instructors before you make that
first launch.
Didn't do that, nearly became a statistic... One of the two moments in

my (never ending) "training" that I don't want to repeat.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
Is that the same Ray that was present then? ;-)

David
NL


------------------------------------------------------------

(Harry) wrote in message m...
would you recommend this ship for a recently licensed pilot ??? comments welcome!

regards
Harry

Reply:
This depends on the experienceyou have at this time and how your
training was done.
The '24 is a very honest glider with excellent stabilty.
Early versions without winglets do exhibit some wing tip drop at stall
if not well coordinated. That said, there is reliable warning. This is
helped a lot by the factory added winglets and even more by
aftermarket winglets in use in some countries.
Speed control is important in landing but not remarkably so.
The '24 was the first of the new generation of gliders with enhanced
safety as an important part of the design. Many manufacturers are just
now starting to catch up.
These include progressive failure in the cockpit area, Upper safety
beam in the cockpit, seat pan design, powerful hydraulic brake,
landing gear designed to fail progresively absorbing energy, and other
detail features.
Towing is honest with CG hook. Most in Europe will have the forward
nose hook installed. If flying with 30M ropes, I would suggest nose
hook for added safety.
If you were trained in modern glass, get some spin training and a few
hours in LS4 or similar and go for it.
I owned a '24 for 13 years and really enjoyed it.
Good luck UH

The poster that you are replying to below seems to be a Canadian. Therefore
you should have written "Thankfully Canada is not the only country on this
planet..." or "Thankfully North America is not the only continent on this
planet...". Otherwise you are just betraying your prejudice.



"tango4" wrote in message news:bfl3d9
...
Thankfully America is not the only country on this planet. In Germany (
another country in the world, in a place called Europe ) where these
aircraft are manufactured, winch launching is common. A hook placed at the
centre CG position is perfectly acceptable for both aerotow and winch
launching wheras a nose hook is only good ( effectively ) for aerotow.

Ian

"Stephen Szikora" wrote in message
.. .
Why wouldn't you "go that far"?

Every glider should be equipped with a nose hook. In today's world, how
many of us will ever fly off a winch? The nose hook should be standard
with
the c of g hook optional, not the other way around! We should insist on
nose hooks on all new gliders and stop letting our knuckle-dragging egos
cling to the past.


This is what prompted the LBA to mandate the installation of nose
hooks
for
airtow in Germany. I wouldn't go that far, but replacing the tug's
Schweitzer hook that can't be released under a strong up-load with a
Tost
hook that can makes a lot of sense.

Bill Daniels

Steve B wrote:
What did you experience or learn... I am curious what not to do!
Don't tow with CG hook without a proper briefing (no pun intended).

The effects are (maybe there is more):
-A nose hook stabilizes direction of the glider. With CG hook, windvane
(??) effect is much stronger. If necessary, put the opposite wing on the
ground.
-stick must be held in forward position so glider doesn't rotate
directly (when enough airspeed is obtained).
-glider is more nervous on elevator in tow.

Again: Don't tow with CG hook without a proper briefing. Knowledge is
only part of the training.

"Bruce Greeff" wrote in message
...
Depends where you are.

There are winches at every club I have ever visited in South Africa.
At my club we gave up on Aerotow 8 years ago.
It is expensive.
It is slow.
It is more dangerous in some ways.
We have predictable enough thermals that we have very low 'relight'
incidence.

That said, you need aerotow when you have long wings, or are carrying
water or need the height or physical displacement to be able to contact
lift. The nose hooks on our gliders are pristine, make us an offer...


I agree.

Bill Daniels

"dhofstee" a écrit dans le message de
...
..
-stick must be held in forward position so glider doesn't rotate
directly (when enough airspeed is obtained).

Err, no. Stick must be held in full aft position to insure yaw stability
during early ground roll. After that, stick must be used to take off at the
desired airspeed (either by pushing or pulling).
If this seems too difficult, don't fly solo.

FWIW,

My experience airotowing using a belly hook has been limited to my PIK
20B, fitted with Mazak winglets, using the Aussie low-tow technique.
Take-off procedure is stock standard:
1. Select full negative flap (-8 deg)
2. Select full forward trim
3. Hold the ship on the ground with back stick until full aileron
control established.
4. Ease stick forward and ease flaps to neutral. Ship lifts off with
no further elevator input.
5. Hold ship at 5-10 feet until tug lifts off and rises above glider.
6. Glider follows just under tug slip-stream. ( If there is a cross
wind hold the ship on ground longer until just before tug lifts off).

The above gives excellent directional control on the ground with no
tendency to drop a wing or drift off-line. Ropes are standard 55
metres length.

In the air (low tow position) directional stability is excellent but
one needs to read changes to the tug's angle of bank quickly. Only
had one (short-term) scare when, in my first competition, the tug went
into a 45 degree RH bank into a thermal at 600'. Took a few
milliseconds to regain my equilibrium!!

Only had one other experience of concern when an experienced tuggie
persuaded me to undertake an outlanding retrieve (from a remote
airfield) using a 35 meter rope - an experience I didn't enjoy and
wouldn't recommend.

Overall, aerotowing with the belly hook hasn't presented any
difficulties worth worrying about and well-intentioned (doom and
gloom) predictions by instructors and winch drivers fortunately have
proved groundless.

Geoff Vincent
Mangalore Gliding Club
Australia

VH-GAX


On 23 Jul 2003 05:32:18 -0700, (Hank Nixon)
wrote:

(Harry) wrote in message m...
would you recommend this ship for a recently licensed pilot ??? comments welcome!

regards
Harry

Reply:
This depends on the experienceyou have at this time and how your
training was done.
The '24 is a very honest glider with excellent stabilty.
Early versions without winglets do exhibit some wing tip drop at stall
if not well coordinated. That said, there is reliable warning. This is
helped a lot by the factory added winglets and even more by
aftermarket winglets in use in some countries.
Speed control is important in landing but not remarkably so.
The '24 was the first of the new generation of gliders with enhanced
safety as an important part of the design. Many manufacturers are just
now starting to catch up.
These include progressive failure in the cockpit area, Upper safety
beam in the cockpit, seat pan design, powerful hydraulic brake,
landing gear designed to fail progresively absorbing energy, and other
detail features.
Towing is honest with CG hook. Most in Europe will have the forward
nose hook installed. If flying with 30M ropes, I would suggest nose
hook for added safety.
If you were trained in modern glass, get some spin training and a few
hours in LS4 or similar and go for it.
I owned a '24 for 13 years and really enjoyed it.
Good luck UH