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#41
December 16th 03, 03:13 PM
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"Oelewapper" wrote: Dear friends, I'm really shocked, I have to say, to see how some members of what is essentially the U.S. military apparatus, and its fans and employees, have been working the numbers throughout this news-thread: Since when are we taking civilian casualties (the so-called "collateral damage") as a positive measure (rather than a negative one) for military planning (say "3 japanese children, women or elderly = 1 G.I."). And since when are fire-bombings that are (almost) exclusively aimed at civilian, urban populations a justified means of fighting a war? Since when is the A-bombing of Nagasaki (also executed for scientific reasons) a legitimate way of scaring a third country like the U.S.S.R., or making sure that the U.S. would occupy Japan before the Russians could? And since when is the mass destruction of cities and innocent civilian populations a justified means for a nation to make sure that it can win a war, even it is a world war? Isn't collective punishment a war crime according to the Geneva Conventions? Shouldn't nuclear weapons, or any other W.M.D., be used as a deterrent, a last resort? The overall, poorly-argumented criticism throughout this group, of the open letter by academics and intellectuals concerning the Enola Gay display, also appears to me to be very unwise. W.M.D., and nuclear weapons in particular, pose some very serious ethical questions indeed. And it's not just their use, to many people the very existence of nuclear weapons on the face of this earth is a very serious, virtually uncontroblable ecological danger, as well as a security threat that is difficult to contain. I wasn't around during the war, but I have visited Hiroshima a couple of years ago, and I would strongly advise all of you to do so too: the inferno caused by a nuclear bomb, cannot be compared to anything else in the world, in our entire human history; not even by the Nazi concentration camps. Therefore, the repeated 'shoot first, ask questions later' mentality throughout most postings of this thread, really strikes me; especially because - we're talking about a display in a museum here - scholars who ask questions or raise any criticism about these issues, are almost systematically treated like traitors or cowards who didn't dare be there... Frankly, you people are really, REALLY scaring me... Is this what the U.S. military complex is all about, and has been about for all those years? Are these the people that are occupying Iraq, because of its so-called W.M.D. (which were in fact be weather balloons), but are sitting on large amounts of nuclear and bio-chemical weapons themselves ??? (with the capability to deliver them worldwide within a matter of minutes) Well then, let me ask you this. Following the hawkish ratio of the arguments that were put forward by most of you here. Wasn't Saddam's use of poison gas in places like Halabja (against those unruly, criminal Kurdish enemies, their cities and their populations), wasn't that a justified means of fighting the war, making sure that Saddam's troops would win without too much of a fight, teaching the enemy a lesson, also making sure the Turkish and Iranian armies would stay on their side of the border, collectively punishing the populations who had started the trouble in the first place, and keeping Iraqi casualties at an absolute minimum... ????? Wasn't the use of W.M.D's, many of whom where procured by Saddam in countries like Germany, the U.S.A. and the U.K., the most adequate and efficient way of dealing with 'the situation', just like the United States had dealt with Japan by bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki ??? Sorry, but I think NOT !!!!! I think it's clear the victor was wrong on both occasions. Merry Christmas. In pace, Iustitia Omnibus. "Polybus" wrote in message . com... Dear Friend, A committee of scholars, veterans, clergy, activists, students, and other interested individuals is now forming to challenge the Smithsonian's plans to exhibit the Enola Gay solely as a "magnificent technological achievement." The planned exhibit is devoid not only of historical context and discussion of the ongoing controversy surrounding the bombings, but even of basic information regarding the number of casualties. We have formulated the following statement of principles, which we plan to circulate widely. The statement makes clear that we are not opposed to exhibiting the plane in a fair and responsible manner, but that we fear that such a celebratory exhibit both legitimizes what happened in 1945 and helps build support for the Bush administration's dangerous new nuclear policies. We, in fact, welcome and intend to initiate a national discussion of both the 1945 bombings and of current nuclear issues. But before we launch a public campaign and officially contact the Smithsonian, we seek endorsements of the statement from a small number of prominent individuals who can help the effort gain credibility and attract media attention. More active participation is, of course, welcome and desirable. Most immediately, though, please let us know if we can add your name to our list and how you would like to be identified. Sincerely, Peter Kuznick, Professor of History and Director, Nuclear Studies Institute, American University Kevin Martin Executive Director, Peace Action Daniel Ellsberg Author, Secrets: A Memoir of Vietnam and The Pentagon Papers -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ http://www.enola-gay.org/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Statement of Principles Gen. John "Jack" Dailey, director of the Smithsonian's National Air and Space Museum, the most widely visited museum in the world, has announced plans to display the Enola Gay--the B-29 Superfortress that dropped the atomic bomb on the city of Hiroshima--as the centerpiece of the museum's new Steven F. Udvar-Hazy Center at Washington Dulles International Airport. That August 6, 1945 attack, according to recent estimates, resulted in over 140,000 deaths. A second atomic bomb dropped three days later on the city of Nagasaki caused an estimated 70,000 deaths. And as many scientists warned in advance would happen, and as President Truman clearly understood, the incineration of Hiroshima and Nagasaki initiated a nuclear arms race that threatened to bring about the annihilation of the human species, a danger that persists today. Recognizing the momentous implications of the onset of the nuclear age, in 1999 a national panel of distinguished journalists and scholars voted the U.S. atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki the most significant news event of the 20th century. Yet, in a statement reflecting extraordinary callousness toward the victims, indifference to the deep divisions among American citizens about the propriety of these actions, and disregard for the feelings of most of the world's peoples, museum director Dailey declared, "We are displaying it [the Enola Gay] in all of its glory as a magnificent technological achievement." The plane, in fact, differs little from other B-29s and gains its notoriety only from the deadly and history-altering nature of its mission. Dailey's remarks are particularly shocking in light of the criticism of the bombing by General Dwight Eisenhower and the questions raised by so many other WWII military leaders, sentiments best reflected in the haunting comments of Admiral William Leahy, Truman's wartime chief of staff who chaired the Joint Chiefs of Staff, who poignantly observed, "the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender....in being the first to use it, we adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages." People throughout the world have already raised powerful objections to the exhibit. Hidankyo, the main survivors' organization in Japan, and Gensuikyo, the Japan Council Against A and H Bombs, have written to Dailey, insisting, "The display rationalizes the bombing and as such it is absolutely unforgiveable....Atomic bombs massacre civilians indiscriminately and are weapons that cannot be justified in humanitarian terms. Even now, many victims continue to suffer the after-effects." Nor can Americans acquiesce to an exhibit that implicitly celebrates the atomic bombings while avoiding all of the crucial questions. By its mishandling of these issues in 1995, the Smithsonian cast international doubt upon the integrity, decency, and fairmindedness of American institutions. We hope to avert a similar outcome this time. We have therefore formed an ad-hoc coalition of religious leaders, veterans, scientists, historians and other scholars, citizen activists, and students united by our conviction that such an exhibit must not go forward as planned. We are not, however, opposed to exhibiting the Enola Gay. Much to the contrary, we welcome any exhibition that will spur an honest and balanced discussion of the atomic bombings of 1945 and of current U.S. nuclear policy. Our greatest concern is that the disturbing issues raised by the atomic bombings in 1945 will not be addressed in the planned exhibit and that President Truman's use of atomic weapons will legitimize the Bush administration's current effort to lower the threshold for future use of nuclear weapons. Whatever the National Air and Space Museum's conscious intention, any effort to treat the atomic bombings of 1945 in a celebratory fashion or to display the plane that dropped the first atomic bomb solely as a "magnificent technological achievement" can only dishonor the museum and the nation and serve the purposes of those who seek to normalize nuclear weapons and facilitate their future use. We intend to use this exhibit, the presidential elections, and the upcoming 60th anniversary of the atomic bombings to stimulate a national discussion of U.S. nuclear history and current policy and to work with like-minded groups in other nations. Most Americans remain unaware of the policy changes adopted in the 2001 U.S. Nuclear Posture Review, which prompted the New York Times to editorially condemn the U.S. as a "nuclear rogue" nation, and of the measures taken by the Bush administration to produce a new generation of "more usable" nuclear weapons. The significance has not been lost on international leaders. In his stirring Peace Declaration on August 6 of this year, Hiroshima Mayor Tadatoshi Akiba warned, "The nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, the central international agreement guiding the elimination of nuclear weapons, is on the verge of collapse. The chief cause is U.S. nuclear policy that, by openly declaring the possibility of a pre-emptive nuclear first strike and calling for resumed research into mini-nukes and other so-called 'useable nuclear weapons,' appears to worship nuclear weapons...." Or as Joseph Cirincione, the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace's nuclear expert, noted, the Bush administration is now "saying that nuclear weapons are no longer the weapon of last resort..." To initiate this desperately needed national conversation on nuclear arms policy, past and present, the Committee for a National Discussion of Nuclear History and Current Policy calls upon Smithsonian Institution Secretary Lawrence Small, John Dailey, and other leaders of the Smithsonian to sit down with our representatives and those of other interested organizations and to jointly plan a balanced exhibit that places the bombings in their historical context, educates viewers about the consequences of past nuclear weapons use, and explains the controversy surrounding the use of the atomic bombs that antedates the deployment of the Enola Gay itself. We also call on the Smithsonian to co-sponsor a joint conference or a series of conferences that explore the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the place of nuclear weapons in the modern world. Given the seriousness of the current nuclear crisis, should the Smithsonian not accede to this request for a fair and balanced presentation and a reasoned discussion of the many profound issues involved, we will join with others in this country and around the world to protest the exhibit in its present form and to catalyze a national discussion of critical nuclear issues. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Partial List of Signers* Kosuzu Abe, Professor University of the Ryukyus, Okinawa, Japan; Affiliate Researcher, Center for Puerto Rican Studies, City University of New York, Hunter College Elaine S. Abelson, Professor of History, New School University Hafsat Abiola, Founder of the Kudirat Initiative for Democracy (KIND) Frank Ackerman, Professor, Global Development and Environment Institute, Tufts University Rev. George Addison, Chaplain, Brock University, St. Catharines, Canada Jean-Christophe Agnew, Professor of American Studies and History, Yale University Wilbert H. Ahern, Professor of History, University of Minnesota, Morris Tadatoshi Akiba, Mayor, City of Hiroshima, Japan Gar Alperovitz, Author, The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb and Atomic Diplomacy: Hiroshima and Potsdam; Bauman Professor of Political Economy, University of Maryland, College Park Benjamin L. Alpers, Professor, Honors College, University of Oklahoma Donna Alvah, Professor of History, St. Lawrence University Michihiro Ama, Department of East Asian Languages and Literature, University of California, Irvine; Secretary, Higashi Hongwanji Mission, Los Angeles Lori E. Amy, Director, Women's and Gender Studies Program, Georgia Southern University Joyce Appleby, Professor Emerita of History, University of California, Los Angeles Anthony K. Arnove, Editor, Iraq Under Siege and Terrorism and War Stanley Aronowitz, Professor of Sociology and Urban Education, Graduate Center, City University of New York John Ashbery, Poet; Professor of Literature, Bard College Alan D. Attie, Professor of Biochemistry, University of Wisconsin-Madison Pat Aufderheide, Professor and Co-Director, Center for Social Media, School of Communication, American University Paul Auster, Writer; Filmmaker Lawrence Badash, Professor Emeritus of History of Science, University of California, Santa Barbara; Author, Scientists and the Development of Nuclear Weapons John S. Baick, Professor of History, Western New England College Ellen R. Baker, Professor of History Columbia University Peter W. Bardaglio, Professor of History, Ithaca College Holly Barker, Embassy, Republic of the Marshall Islands; Author, Bravo for the Marshallese: Regaining Control in a Post Nuclear, Post-Colonial World Michael A. Barnhart, Distinguished Teaching Professor, Department of History, State University of New York-Stony Brook Rosalyn Baxandall, Professor and Chair of American Studies, State University of New York College, Old Westbury David T. Beito, Professor of History, University of Alabama; Research Fellow, The Independent Institute Ruth Ben-Ghiat, Professor of Italian Studies and History, New York University Thomas Bender, Professor of History, New York University Medea Benjamin, Co-founder, Global Exchange Scott H. Bennett, Professor of History, Georgian Court College Susan Porter Benson, Professor of History, University of Connecticut Ira Berlin, Distinguished University Professor, University of Maryland R. B. Bernstein, Adjunct Professor of Law, New York Law School; Author, Thomas Jefferson Kai Bird, Co-editor, Hiroshima's Shadow; Author, The Color of Truth: McGeorge Bundy and William Bundy, Brothers in Arms Herbert P. Bix, Professor of History and Sociology, Binghamton University; Author, Hirohito and the Making of Modern Japan Casey Nelson Blake, Professor of History and American Studies, Columbia University William Blum, Former State Department Official; Freelance Journalist; Author, Rogue State: A Guide to the World's Only Superpower John Bodnar, Chancellor's Professor of History, Indiana University Julian Bond, Professor, School of Public Affairs, American University; Department of History, University of Virginia Paul S. Boyer, Merle Curti Professor of History Emeritus, University of Wisconsin-Madison Philip Brenner, Professor of International Relations, American University Karen Brodkin, Professor of Anthropology, University of California, Los Angeles Barbara Brooks, Professor of History, City College and the Graduate Center, City University of New York Anne Brophy, Professor of History, Georgia State University John K. Brown, Professor of History and Technology, University of Virginia Rogers Brubaker, Professor of Sociology, University of California, Los Angeles Carolyn J. Bryan, Professor of Music, Georgia Southern University Paul Buhle, Professor of American Civilization, Brown University Terry Butler, Professor of Mathematics, Rutgers University Robert Buzzanco, Professor of History, University of Houston Christopher Capozzola, Professor of History, Massachusetts Institute of Technology Mina J. Carson, Professor of History, Oregon State University Madeline H. Caviness, Mary Richardson Professor of Art and Art History, Tufts University; President, International Council for Philosophy and Humanistic Studies Courtney B. Cazden, Charles William Eliot Professor of Education Emerita, Harvard University Jane Censer, Professor of History, George Mason University Rev. Jerrye G Champion, National Board President, Church Women United Julie A. Charlip, Professor of History, Whitman College Una Chaudhuri, Professor of English and Drama, New York University William F. Cheek, Professor of History, San Diego State University Ira Chernus, Professor of Religious Studies, University of Colorado at Boulder Noam Chomsky, Institute Professor, Department of Linguistics and Philosophy, Massachusetts Institute of Technology Dick Cluster, Writer; Translator; Professor in Honors and Academic Support Programs, University of Massachusetts at Boston Ben Cohen, President, Business Leaders for Sensible Priorities; Co-Founder, Ben and Jerry's Lizabeth Cohen, Howard Mumford Jones Professor of American Studies, Harvard University Steven Cohen, Professor of Education, Tufts University Barry Commoner, Director Emeritus, Center for the Biology of Natural Systems, Queens College, City University of New York William E. Connolly, Krieger-Eisenhower Professor of Politics, Johns Hopkins University Sandi E. Cooper, Professor of History, College of Staten Island Edward Countryman, University Distinguished Professor of History, Southern Methodist University Susan Crane, Professor of Modern European History, University of Arizona Bruce C. Daniels, Professor of History, Texas Tech University Lawrence R. Davidson, Professor of History, West Chester University Natalie Zemon Davis, Henry Charles Lea Professor of History Emerita, Princeton University Alan Dawley, Professor of History, The College of New Jersey Jane S. De Hart, Professor of History, University of California, Santa Barbara David De Leon, Graduate History Director, Howard University Judith DeGroat, Professor of History, St. Lawrence University Marie Dennis, Director, Maryknoll Office for Global Concerns Matthew J. Dennis, Professor of History, University of Oregon E.L. Doctorow, Author Ariel Dorfman, Writer, Distinguished Professor, Duke University Ann Douglas, Parr Professor of Comparative Literature, Columbia University John W. Dower, Professor of History, Massachusetts Institute of Technology; Author, Embracing Defeat: Japan in the Wake of World War II Jonathan Dresner, Professor of East Asian History, University of Hawai'i at Hilo Ellen Carol DuBois, Professor of History, University of California, Los Angeles Mary L. Dudziak, Judge Edward J. and Ruey L. Guirado Professor of Law and History, University of Southern California Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz, Professor of Ethnic Studies, California State University, Hayward Anabel Dwyer, Board Member, Lawyers' Committee on Nuclear Policy Sally Eberhardt, Theaters Against War, New York, New York Taner Edis, Professor of Physics, Truman State University Carolyn Eisenberg, Professor of History, Hofstra University Ivan Eland, Senior Fellow and Director, Center on Peace & Liberty, The Independent Institute Pat Elder, Co-founder, DC Anti-War Network (DAWN) Geoff Eley, Sylvia L. Thrupp Collegiate Professor of Comparative History; Professor of German Studies, University of Michigan Daniel Ellsberg, Author, Secrets: A Memoir of Vietnam and The Pentagon Papers Tom Engelhardt, Author, The End of Victory Culture; Creator, TomDispatch.com Sara M. Evans, Professor of History, University of Minnesota Samih Farsoun, Professor of Sociology, American University Lane Fenrich, Deptartment of History, Northwestern University Kirsten Fermaglich, Professor of History and Jewish Studies, Michigan State University Eileen Findlay, Professor of History, American University Michael M.J. Fischer, Professor of Anthropology and Science and Technology Studies, Massachusetts Institute of Technology Robert P. Forbes, Lecturer in History; Associate Director, Gilder Lehrman Center for the Study of Slavery, Resistance, and Abolition, Yale University John M. Foster, Professor of Biology Emeritus, Hampshire College. Elizabeth Frank, Joseph E. Harry Professor of Modern Languages & Literature, Bard College Marian C. Franz, Executive Director, National Campaign for a Peace Tax Fund George M. Fredrickson, Edgar E. Robinson Professor of United State History Emeritus, Stanford University Valerie French, Professor of History, American University Max Paul Friedman, Professor of History, Florida State University Michael Frisch, Professor of History/Senior Research Scholar, University at Buffalo, State University of New York Atsushi Fujioka, Professor of U.S. Economy, Ritsumeikan University, Kyoto Lloyd Gardner, Research Professor of History, Rutgers University Sister Maureen Geary, OP, Promoter of Justice, Peace and Care for Creation for the Grand Rapids Dominicans Clifford Geertz, Professor Emeritus, Institute for Advanced Study, Princeton, New Jersey Joseph Gerson, Director of Programs, American Friends Service Committee, New England Regional Office James Gilbert, Professor of History, University of Maryland John Gillis, Professor of History, Rutgers University Todd Gitlin, Professor of Journalism and Sociology, Columbia University David Glassberg, Professor of History, University of Massachusetts, Amherst Natalie J. Goldring, Executive Director, Program on Global Security and Disarmament, University of Maryland; Acting Chair, Executive Board, Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists Gary R. Goldstein, Professor of Physics and Astronomy, Tufts University James A. Good, Professor of History, North Harris College Linda Gordon, Professor of History, New York University Elliott J. Gorn, Professor of History, Brown University Van Gosse, Professor of History, Frankin & Marshall College; Co-Chair, Historians Against the War Paul Gottfried, Professor of Humanities, Elizabethtown College Loren Graham, Professor of History and History of Science, Massachusetts Institute of Technology Jonathan Granoff, President, Global Security Institute; CoChair, American Br Association Committee on Arms Control and National Security Anne H. Griffis, Church Women United Richard B. Griffis, United Church of Christ Robert Griffith, Professor of History, American University Elaine C. Hagopian, Professor Emerita of Sociology, Simmons College Xanthe Hall, Program Director, International Physicians for the Prevention of Nuclear War, Germany David C. Hallin, Professor of Communication, University of California, San Diego Ronald Hamowy, Professor of History Emeritus, University of Alberta, Canada; Research Fellow, The Independent Institute Robert E. Hannigan, Dept. of History, Suffolk University Laura Hein, Department of History, Northwestern University Ira Helfand, MD, Co-founder and Past President, Physicians for Social Responsibility David R. Henderson, Professor of Economics, Naval Postgraduate School, Monterey, California Nancy M. Henley, Professor Emerita of Psychology, University of California, Los Angeles Margot A. Henriksen, Professor of History, University of Hawaii at Manoa Edward S. Herman, Professor Emeritus of Finance, Wharton School, University of Pennsylvania Neil Hertz, Professor of Humanities, Johns Hopkins University Robert Higgs, Senior Fellow in Political Economy, The Independent Institute; Editor, The Independent Review: A Journal of Political Economy Hosea Hirata, Professor, Director of the Japanese Program, Tufts University Wayne Hobson, Professor of American Studies, California State University, Fullerton Jennifer L. Hochschild, Henry LeBarre Jayne Professor of Government; Professor of African and African American Studies, Harvard University Martha Hodes, Professor of History, New York University Stanley Hoffmann, Buttenwieser University Professor, Harvard University Rev. David J. Hogan, Roman Catholic pastor, retired John P. Holdren, Teresa and John Heinz Professor; Director, Program on Science, Technology, and Public Policy, John F. Kennedy School of Government, Harvard University Albert L. "Woody" Holton, III, Professor of History, University of Richmond Gerald Horne, Moores Professor of History and African-American Studies, University of Houston Gerald C. Horne, Professor of African-American History, Professor of Communications Studies, University of North Carolina Michael Hunt, Professor of History, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill Lloyd A. Hunter, Professor of History and American Studies, Franklin College Adrienne Carey Hurley, Japan Studies Postdoctoral Fellow, Stanford University Amy Isaacs, National Director, Americans for Democratic Action David Isles, Professor of Mathematics, Tufts University William Issel, Professor of History, San Francisco State University Maurice Isserman, William R. Kenan, Jr. Professor of History, Hamilton College Elizabeth Ito, Teacher Bruce Jackson, SUNY Distinguished Professor and Samuel P. Capen Professor of American Culture, University at Buffalo Matthew Frye Jacobson, Professor of American Studies and History, Yale University Sheila Jasanoff, Pforzheimer Professor of Science and Technology Studies, John F. Kennedy School of Government, Harvard University Martin Jay, Sidney Hellman Ehrman Professor of History, University of California, Berkeley Robert Jensen, Professor of Journalism, University of Texas, Austin John Jonik, Political cartoonist Mitch Kachun, Professor of History, Western Michigan University Michio Kaku, Professor of Theoretical Physics, City College and the Graduate Center of the City University of New York Michael Kammen, Professor of American History and Culture, Cornell University; Former Member of the Smithsonian Council Laura Croghan Kamoie, Professor of History, American University Louis Kampf, Professor of Literature Emeritus, Massachusetts Institute of Technology Rhoda Kanaaneh, Professor of Anthropology, American University Stanley N. Katz, Professor of Public and International Affairs; Director, Center for Arts and Cultural Policy Studies, Woodrow Wilson School, Princeton University Ira Katznelson, Ruggles Professor of Political Science and History, Columbia University Gordon Kaufman, Mallinckrodt Professor of Divinity Emeritus, Harvard University Michael Kazin, Professor of History, Georgetown University Joseph Kinner, Professor of History, Gallaudet University Gregory T. Knouff, Professor of History, Keene State College Barbara Koeppel, Investigative Journalist Walter Kohn, Research Professor of Physics, University of California, Santa Barbara, Nobel Laureate of Chemistry Gabriel Kolko, Distinguished Research Professor Emeritus, York University, Toronto, Canada Dennis Kortheuer, Professor of History, California State University, Long Beach J. Morgan Kousser, Professor of History and Social Science, California Institute of Technology Joel Kovel, Professor of Social Studies, Bard College Ron Kovic, Author, Born on the Fourth of July Wendy Kozol, Professor of Gender and Women's Studies, Oberlin College David Krieger, President, Nuclear Age Peace Foundation Kenneth Kusmer, Professor of History, Temple University Peter J. Kuznick, Professor of History, Director, Nuclear Studies Institute, American University Walter LaFeber, Professor of History, Cornell University Ann J. Lane, Professor of History and Students in Women and Gender, University of Virginia Fr. Paul Lansu, Pax Christi International Donald N. Lathrop, Professor of Peace and World Order Studies, Berkshire Community College, Pittsfield, Massachusetts Steven F. Lawson, Professor of History, Rutgers University Norman Lear, Writer-Producer Richard Ned Lebow, James O. Freedman Presidential Professor of Government, Dartmouth College Joel L. Lebowitz, Professor; Director, Center for Mathematical Sciences Research, Rutgers University Eric LeCompte, National Council Chair, Pax Christi USA: National Council Peace Movement Susan E. Lederer, Professor of History of Medicine, History, Yale University Steve Leeper, US representative, World Conference of Mayors for Peace Mark H. Leff, Professor of History, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign Melvyn P. Leffler, Stettinius Professor of American History, University of Virginia Roger Leisner, Host, Radio Free Maine Jesse Lemisch, Professor Emeritus of History, John Jay College of Criminal Justice, City University of New York Gerda Lerner, Robinson-Edwards Professor of History Emerita, University of Wisconsin, Madison Lawrence W. Levine, Margaret Byrne Professor of History Emeritus, University of California, Berkeley; Professor of History, George Mason University Norman Levitt, Professor of Mathematics, Rutgers University Robert Jay Lifton, Visiting Professor of Psychiatry, Harvard Medical School; Co-author, Hiroshima in America Susan Lindee, Professor of History and Sociology of Science, University of Pennsylvania; Author, Suffering Made Real: American Science and the Survivors at Hiroshima Kriste Lindenmeyer, Professor of History, University of Maryland, Baltimore County Leon F. Litwack, A.F. & May T. Morrison Professor of History, University of California, Berkeley Alvaro Vargas Llosa, Research Fellow, The Independent Institute; Author, Liberty for Latin America (forthcoming) Doug Long, Hiroshima Scholar Ronald G. Lora, Professor of History, University of Toledo Bernard Lown, MD, Professor Emeritus, Harvard School of Public Healt Staughton Lynd, Historian and Attorney Vincent Lyon-Callo, Professor of Anthropology, Western Michigan University Mark H. Lytle, Professor of History, Bard College Nancy MacLean, Professor, Deptartment of History, Northwestern University Graham MacPhee, Professor, University of Portsmouth, England Mairead Corrigan Maguire, Nobel Peace Laureate Arjun Makhijani, President, Institute for Energy and Environmental Research Leo Maley, III, Author of numerous articles on the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki Jane Mansbridge, Adams Professor, Kennedy School of Government, Harvard University Glenn Marcus, Documentary Producer; Adjunct Professor of Communications, Johns Hopkins University William F. Marina, Professor of Humanities, Professor of Business; Former Director of International Studies, Florida Atlantic University Norman Markowitz, Professor of History, Rutgers University Kevin Martin, Executive Director, Peace Action Eric S. Maskin, A.O. Hirschman Professor of Social Science, Institute for Advanced Study, Princeton, New Jersey Paul H. Mattingly, Professor of History; Director, Program in Public History, New York University Jeremy Maxand, Executive Director, Snake River Alliance, Boise, Idaho Elaine Tyler May, Professor of American Studies and History, University of Minnesota; Author, Homeward Bound: American Families in the Cold War Era Joseph A. McCartin, Professor of History, Georgetown University Robert W. McChesney, Research Professor of Communication, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign Kathleen McCluskey, CSJ, Executive Director, US Federation of Sisters of Saint Joseph Robert S. McElvaine, Elizabeth Chisholm Professor of Arts & Letters and Professor of History, Millsaps College J. Geeta McGahey, MD J.E. McNeil, Executive Director, Center on Conscience & War J.R. McNeill, Professor, School of Foreign Service, Georgetown University Brent Meeker, Science and Engineering Fellow of the Naval Air System Command William Mello, Professor of Labor Studies, Indiana University Everett Mendelsohn, Professor of the History of Science, Harvard University Leisa D. Meyer, Professor of History and Director, Women's Studies Program, College of William and Mary Joanne Meyerowitz, Professor of History, Indiana University; Editor, Journal of American History Barton P. Meyers, Visiting Professor of Psychology, Bard College Zia Mian, Program on Science and Global Security, Princeton University Irene Michaud, Western Massachusetts American Friends Service Committee Howard G. Miller, Professor Emeritus of Psychology, North Carolina State University Richard H. Minear, Professor of History, University of Massachusetts, Amherst, Translator of Hiroshima literature Gregg Mitman, Professor of History of Science, Medical History, and Science & Technology Studies, University of Wisconsin-Madison Uday Mohan, Author of numerous articles on the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki Marian B. Mollin, Professor of History, Virginia Tech University David Montgomery, Farnam Professor of History Emeritus, Yale University Rick Moody, Author Purple America and The Ice Storm Regina Morantz-Sanchez, Professor of History, University of Michigan Leuren Moret, Environmental Commissioner, Berkeley, California Bradford Morrow, Author, Trinity Fields and Ariel's Crossing; Professor of Literature, Bard College Richard Moser, Ph.D., National Field Representative, American Association of University Professors Robert K. Musil, Executive Director and CEO, Physicians for Social Responsibility Pamela S. Nadell, Professor of History, American University Sylvain Nagler, Professor, Empire State College David Nasaw, Distinguished Professor of History, City University of New York Graduate Center Gary B. Nash, Professor Emeritus of History, University of California, Los Angeles Anil Nauriya, Advocate, Supreme Court of India, New Delhi, India Bruce Nelson, Professor of History, Dartmouth College Margaret Nielsen, Professor of Social Work, Michigan State University Philip Nobile, Editor, Judgment at the Smithsonian Howard Norman, Writer Ronald L. Numbers, Hilldale Professor of the History of Science and Medicine, University of Wisconsin-Madison Arnold A. Offner, Cornelia F. Hugel Professor of History, Lafayette College Patricia Oldham, Lecturer Behavioral-Social Sciences Department Hostos Community College, City University of New York Alicia Ostriker, Professor, Department of English, Rutgers University David S. Painter, Professor of History, Georgetown University John O. Pastore, Professor of Medicine, Tufts University School of Medicine; Director of Echocardiography, Caritas St. Elizabeth's Medical Center; Former Executive Secretary, International Physicians for the Prevention of Nuclear War Orlando Patterson, John Cowles Professor of Sociology, Harvard University Philip J. Pauly, Professor of History, Rutgers University David Penna, Professor, Department of Government and History, Gallaudet University Theda Perdue, Professor of History, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill James Petras, Professor of Sociology, Binghamton University Alan F. Phillips, M.D. and Joy Phillips, Founders, Anti-Nuclear-War Fund, Project Ploughshares, Canada Geoff Pingree, Professor, Cinema Studies and English, Oberlin College Mark Pittenger, Professor of History, University of Colorado Stephen J. Pitti, Professor of History, Yale University John Polanyi, Nobel Laureate, Chemistry, 1986 Gareth Porter, Author, Perils of Dominance: Power Imbalance and the Path to the Vietnam War Theodore A. Postol, Professor of Science, Technology, and National Security Policy, Massachusetts Institute of Technology Lawrence N. Powell, Professor of History, Tulane University Linda C. Raeder, Professor of Humanities, Palm Beach Atlantic University Ralph Raico, Professor of History, State College, Buffalo James Michael Reaume, Jr. MD Adolph Reed, Professor, Graduate Faculty of Political and Social Science, New School University Leo P. Ribuffo, George Washington Distinguished Professor, Department of History, George Washington University Robert J. Richards, Professor of History, Philosophy, and Psychology; Director, Morris Fishbein Center for the History of Science and Medicine, University of Chicago Paul Craig Roberts, Research Fellow, The Independent Institute; Former Assistant Secretary for Economic Policy, U.S. Department of the Treasury Dave Robinson, National Coordinator, Pax Christi USA Jo Ann O. Robinson, Professor of History, Morgan State University Lillian S. Robinson, Professor and Principal, Simone de Beauvoir Women's Studies Institute, Concordia Univesity, Montréal, Canada Hugh Rockoff, Professor of Economics, Rutgers University Daniel T. Rodgers, Henry Charles Lea Professor of History, Princeton University Ruth Rosen, Professor Emerita of History, University of California, Davis Robert A. Rosenstone, Professor of History, California Institute of Technology Roy Rosenzweig, Professor of History, George Mason University Andrew Ross, Professor of American Studies, New York University Steven Ross, Professor of History, University of Southern California Joseph Rotblat, Nobel Peace Laureate, 1995 Joshua D. Rothman, Professor of History, University of Alabama Richard Rubenstein, Professor of Conflict Resolution and Public Affairs, George Mason University Anne Sarah Rubin, Professor of History, University of Maryland, Baltimore County Bruce Russett, Dean Acheson Professor of Political Science, Yale University Jonathan Schell, Author, Fate of the Earth Cathy Schneider, Professor of International Studies, American University Eric Schneider, Associate Director for Academic Affairs, School of Arts and Sciences, University of Pennsylvania Ellen Schrecker, Professor of History, Yeshiva University Michael Schudson, Professor of Communication, University of California, San Diego Robert D. Schulzinger, Professor of History, University of Colorado, Boulder Silvan S. Schweber, Professor of Physics and Koret Professor of the History of Science Emeritus, Brandeis University Nicole Schweizer, Art Historian, Switzerland Joan W. Scott, Professor of Social Science, Institute for Advanced Study, Princeton, New Jersey Pete Seeger, Musician, Songwriter Mark Selden, Professor of Sociology and History, Binghamton University; Author, The Atomic Bomb. Voices From Hiroshima and Nagasaki Butler D. Shaffer, Professor, Southwestern University School of Law, Los Angeles, California; Author, Calculated Chaos Robert Shaffer, Professor of History, Shippensburg University of Pennsylvania Charles Sheehan-Miles, Veterans for Common Sense; Executive Director, Nuclear Policy Research Institute Martin Sheen, Actor; Director; Activist Doris H. Sher, Professor of History, New Jersey Institute of Technology, Rutgers University, Newark Ann Sherif, Professor of East Asian Studies, Oberlin College Michael Sherry, Richard W. Leopold Professor of History, Northwestern University; Author, The Rise of American Air Power: The Creation of Armageddon Martin J. Sherwin, Walter S. Dickson Professor of English and American History, Tufts University; Author, A World Destroyed Francis R. Shor, Professor, Department of Interdisciplinary Studies, Wayne State University Chris Simpson, Professor of Communication, American University Rev. William Sinkford, President, Unitarian Universalist Association Kathryn Kish Sklar, Distinguished Professor of History, State University of New York, Binghamton Zach Sklar, Writer, Olivebridge, New York Melvin Small, Professor of History, Wayne State University Barbara Herrnstein Smith, Professor of Comparative Literature and English, Duke University; Professor of English, Brown University Damu Smith, Founder, Black Voices for Peace Judith E. Smith, Professor of American Studies, University of Massachusetts, Boston Neil Smith, Distinguished Professor of Anthropology, City University of New York Graduate Center Mary Hembrow Snyder, Professor of Religious Studies and Chair, Humanities Division, Mercyhurst College Robert W. Snyder, Director, Journalism and Media Studies, Rutgers University, Newark Alan Sokal, Professor of Physics, New York University Michael M. Sokal, Professor of History, Worcester Polytechnic Institute Clinton W. Spence, Pastor, United Methodist Church Scott Spencer, Author Paul Spickard, Professor of History and Asian American Studies University of California, Santa Barbara David E. Stannard, Professor of American Studies, University of Hawaii, Honolulu Christine Stansell, Professor of History, Princeton University Peter Stearns, Professor of History, George Mason University John Steinbach, Coordinator, Hiroshima-Nagasaki Peace Committee Jean Stokan, Policy Director, Pax Christi USA Oliver Stone, Filmmaker Susan Strasser, Professor of History, University of Delaware Dorothy Stroup, Author, In the Autumn Wind Cathie Sullivan, Director, Los Alamos Museum Project Ronald Takaki, Professor of Ethinc Studies, University of California, Berkeley; Author, Hiroshima: Why America Dropped the Atomic Bomb David Thelen, Professor of History, Indiana University David J. Theroux, Founder and President, The Independent Institute; Publisher, The Independent Review: A Journal of Political Economy; Director, OnPower.org John Whittier Treat, Professor of Japanese, Yale University; Author, Writing Ground Zero: Japanese Literature and the Atomic Bomb Nicholas Turse, Professor of Epidemiology, Columbia University William M. Tuttle, Jr., Professor of American Studies, University of Kansas Charlotte A. Twight, Professor of Economics, Boise State University; Adjunct Fellow, The Independent Institute Nancy C. Unger, Professor of History, Women and Gender Studies, and Environmental Studies, Santa Clara University Steven W. Usselman, Professor of History, Georgia Institute of Technology Gore Vidal, Author; Historian; Playwright Joe Volk, Executive Secretary, Friends Committee on National Legislation Frank von Hippel, Professor of Public and International Affairs, Woodrow Wilson School; Co-Director, Program on Science and Global Security, Princeton University Kurt Vonnegut, Author Daniel J. Walkowitz, Director, Metropolitan Studies, Professor of History, New York University Charles Wallace, Jr., Chaplain and Professor of Religious Studies, Willamette University Mike Wallace, Distinguished Professor of History, John Jay College, City University of New York Michael Walzer, Professor of Social Science, Institute for Advanced Study, Princeton, New Jersey Jessica Wang, Professor of History, University of California, Los Angeles Charles Weiner, Professor Emeritus, History of Science and Technology, Massachusetts Institute of Technology Richard Weiss, Professor of History, University of California, Los Angeles Andrew Wells-Dang, Regional Representative Fund for Reconciliation & Development, Hanoi, Vietnam Robert Westbrook, Professor of History, University of Rochester Philip E. Wheaton, Episcopal priest; Founder, Ecumenical Program for Inter-American Communication & Action; Author, Empire & the Word Anne Mitchell Whisnant, Historian and Mellon Project Manager, John Hope Franklin Humanities Institute, Duke University David E. Whisnant, Professor Emeritus, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill Geoffrey White, Professor of Anthropology, University of Hawaii Stephen J. Whitfield, Max Richter Professor of American Civilization, Brandeis University Jon Wiener, Professor of History, UC Irvine Roger Wilkins, Robinson Professor of History and American Culture, George Mason University Brett Williams, Professor of Anthropology, American University David Blake Willis, Professor of Cultural Studies, Soai University, Osaka, Japan Garry Wills, Author, Lincoln at Gettysburg Angela C. Wilson, Professor of Indigenous History, Arizona State University Lawrence S. Wittner, Professor of History, State University of New York, Albany Robert Wohl, Professor of History, University of California, Los Angeles; Author, A Passion for Wings Robert S. Wolff, Professor of History, Central Connecticut State University Roberta Wollons, Professor and Chair, Department of History, Indiana University Northwest Thomas E. Woods, Jr., Professor of History, Suffolk County Community College Peter Yarrow, Musician, Songwriter (Peter, Paul, and Mary) Keniiro Yokoro, Secretary General of Japanese Physicians for the Prevention of Nuclear War Lisa Yoneyama, Professor of Cultural Studies and U.S.-Japan Studies, Department of Literature, University of California, San Diego Marilyn B. Young, Professor of History, New York University Maurice Zeitlin, Professor of Sociology, University of California, Los Angeles Howard Zinn, Professor Emeritus, History, Boston University; Author, A People's History of the United States Michael Zuckerman, Professor of History, University of Pennsylvania * Institutional affiliations added for purposes of identification only. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Committee for a National Discussion of Nuclear History and Current Policy P.O. Box 21827 Washington, D.C. 20009-1827 http://www.enola-gay.org/ Look at the list of folks who signed the document: it's a who's who of the liberal and antiwar left. Including several revisionist historians, an known apologist for dictators (Chomsky, who supported Pol Pot, Saddam, Milosevic, Kim-Jong Il, Castro, etc), and what I call professional activists. Some folks seem stuck in a 1960s' time warp, and seem WAAY too fond of ultra-left causes. The party's been over since '89, so get over it. I had a grandfather who was going from Europe to the Pacific for the Invasion of Japan. He and his unit had just gotten their vaccinations to go from England Direct to the Pacific when Hiroshima and Nagasaki were nuked. He felt to his dying day that the bombs saved their lives. End of story. Posted via www.My-Newsgroups.com - web to news gateway for usenet access! 
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#42
December 17th 03, 02:59 AM
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Subject: Enola Gay: Burnt flesh and other magnificent technological
achievements From: (Greg Moritz) Date: 12/16/03 6:51 PM Pac 1) We could have dropped the bomb in a lightly populated area .. Or the Japanese could have attacked another harbor other that Pearl and sank a load of harmless barges with almost no casualties instead of the thousands of dead at Pearl. The point would have been made.Don't you think so? Regards, Regards Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
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#43
December 17th 03, 04:15 PM
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One amusing thing about the protests is that either a strong blockade or
continued incendiary attacks would have killed far more civilians and would have prolonged the Japanese occupations throughout asia. FFM Duck Dog wrote: Olivers wrote in message ... (f) No single military commander and none of the Allied governments seems to have even considered or suggested blockade as single course to victory. All involved understood the Japanese well enough to comprehend that invasion seemed the only available option. Even LeMay did not believe that the Japanese could be caused to surrender by air attack. Just one point here. In the World at War series, Gen. LeMay was quoted as saying that in July of 1945, the conventional wisdom among commanders in the Pacific was that Japan would have to capitulate in 6-8 weeks given the nightly firebombings on Japanese cities, and the resulting loss of warmaking capacity. So I believe you're wrong WRT LeMay; he most certainly DID believe that Japan could be forced into surrender from air attacks. One aspect of the atom bombings that most people miss is that the B-29 incendiary campaign did far more destruction to the home islands than the atomic bombs, and were primarily responsible for severely crippling Japanese industry. This led to the curious situation where the Japanese field army in Asia (which constituted the lions share of Japanese ground forces) were relatively intact but their support structure was almost completely obliterated. Nevertheless, while the Japanese commanders still had such an intact army in China and elsewhere, they felt they had a chance. They were disabused of this notion when the USSR invaded Manchuria (a brilliant, understudied campaign for the Soviets, btw). My point? One can conceivably argue that the atomic bombings were unnecessary, but only from the standpoint that the incendiary bombings were already having the desired effect of destroying Japanese infrastructure. The atomic bombings by themselves would not have induced a surrender, but coming as they did at end of a long bombing campaign that essentially destroyed Japan, they were (along with the Russian invasion in the north) the final knockout punches that ended the fight. The atomic bombings can be seen then as merely an escalation of the means of destruction, and the question of whether they were "necessary" becomes less urgent.
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#44
December 17th 03, 06:21 PM
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"Oelewapper" wrote: Enola Gay draws protesters, atomic bomb survivors Tuesday, December 16, 2003 Posted: 11:21 AM EST (1621 GMT) Two views of the Enola Gay, which dropped the first wartime atomic bomb over Hiroshima, Japan. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Story Tools -------------------------------------------------------------------------- RELATED . Interactive: Air and Space Museum Extension Takes Flight -------------------------------------------------------------------- . Gallery: Air and Space Museum expansion . National Air and Space Museum . New air and space annex lifts off YOUR E-MAIL ALERTS Follow the news that matters to you. Create your own alert to be notified on topics you're interested in. Or, visit Popular Alerts for suggestions. Manage alerts | What is this? CHANTILLY, Virginia (AP) -- A small group of protesters briefly disrupted the official opening of the National Air and Space Museum's new annex at Dulles International Airport, spilling a red liquid supposed to resemble blood near the Enola Gay exhibit and throwing an object that dented the airplane. Two men were arrested after security broke up the demonstration on Monday. Thomas K. Siemer, 73, of Columbus, Ohio, was charged with felony destruction of property and loitering, while Gregory Wright of Hagerstown, Maryland faced a misdemeanor loitering charge. Several elderly atomic bomb survivors from Japan also expressed dismay that information on the effects of the bomb dropped by the Enola Gay on Hiroshima August 6, 1945, was not included in the exhibit. "If they want to show these planes, that's fine but we can't help but also demand that they show the damage and the stories that take place behind these weapons," said Terumi Tanaka, 71, a survivor of the Nagasaki atomic bomb attack which occurred three days after Hiroshima. A total of 230,000 people were killed in the two attacks. Japan surrendered unconditionally six days after the Nagasaki bombing. Some visitors at the opening of the Steven F. Udvar-Hazy Center said, however, they considered the Enola Gay an important part of aviation history. "The Hiroshima bomb started the whole nuclear age, that's why I wanted to see it," said Philip Wheaton, 78, of Takoma Park, Maryland. The Enola Gay is one of 82 racers, gliders, helicopters, warplanes and airliners currently on display in the Smithsonian Institution's nearly 294,000-square-foot aviation exhibit hanger. The Hiroshima bomb started the whole nuclear age, that's why I wanted to see it. -- Philip Wheaton of Takoma Park, Maryland Other notable exhibits include the S-R 71 Blackbird, an American spy plane that still holds the record as the fastest plane ever built; and the space shuttle Enterprise, which was used by NASA to test various concepts during the development of reusable spacecraft. The Smithsonian's aerospace collection also will eventually be displayed in the 53,000 square foot James S. McDonnell Space hanger. "This is the largest air and space exhibition complex in the world," said retired Gen. John R. Dailey, director of the museum. "We have about 40 percent of the aircraft in here today, and over the next three years we'll be moving more in." Visitors, for the most part, said they were impressed with the new annex. "Seeing all of these aircraft fully assembled is getting to see history," said Ray Kimball, 30, of Menloe Park, California. The Army helicopter pilot toured the facility with his three year-old son. "I'll have to bring him back when he's older." So what if there are folks who complain? The Japanese STARTED THE WAR. For the Chinese, it was in '37, for everyone else, it was 7/8 Dec 41. The Japanese have only themselves to blame for the consequences. And if the consequences are 15 Kt on Hiroshima and 20 Kt on Nagasaki, so be it. The strikes forced the Emperor to accept Potsdam and surrender, despite an attempted coup the night of 14/15 Aug. The war ended, the boys and girls came home, and Europe and Asia could start the painful task of rebuilding. Better that than storming the beaches of Kyushu in November and the Kanto the next March. Posted via www.My-Newsgroups.com - web to news gateway for usenet access!
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#45
December 17th 03, 10:44 PM
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Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Jerry Johnson" wrote in message om... And why is it that reports from the troops in Iraq suggest that the public is not seeing anything close to the whole picture of what is taking place there? Because reporting the whole picture of what is taking place there would would make it harder to oust Bush next November. US mainstream media isn't going to do anything like that. Maybe it's because many Americans have concluded that Bush is better than their opposition? In a world with 57 channels of news, talk radio, Internet newspapers, and newsgroups like this, railing against the mainstream media is futile. From what I've been inferring, the U.S. is beginning to win the war against the irregulars. It's a long way to go before the country is secure, but it will happen if they keep this up. Capturing Saddam didn't hurt.
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#46
December 18th 03, 09:09 AM
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"Matt Wiser" wrote in message news:3fdb5db4$1@bg2.... "Sunny" wrote: "Polybus" wrote in message . com... Peter Kuznick, Professor of History and Director, Nuclear Studies Institute, American University Kevin Martin Executive Director, Peace Action Daniel Ellsberg Author, Secrets: A Memoir of Vietnam and The Pentagon Papers Questions : 1. Do the three retards listed above, condone the cross posting to the groups listed ? 2. Does Peter Kuznick really study History (or only his version of it)? 3. Do any of the three realise that there was a World War on at the time? 4. What would you have suggested, at the time, as the means to subdue a fanatical enemy, that had proved to demonstrate acts of barbarism that are still wondered at? They all seem to think that if we had talked nicely to the Japanese, they would have surrendered. Not bloody likely. There was a war on, a major invasion planned of Kyushu in November, and ANY MEANS to prevent the bloodbath of American, British, and yes, Japanese lives and END THE WAR ASAP is a viable option. If that means incinerating two, three, or however many Japanese Cities by the bombs carried by the 509th's B-29s, so be it. Do you think Saddam Hussein had the same right to use WMD to save the lives of Iraqi servicemen while fighting Iran and internal rebellion? Did Al-Qaeda have the same right to deliberately target civilians in their war with the USA, specifically WTC?
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#47
December 18th 03, 09:53 AM
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#48
December 18th 03, 09:58 AM
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#50
December 18th 03, 03:10 PM
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Dan,
Nice to see some one understands the meaning of "biased news coverage." John thinks it means untruthful when it actually means one-sided. Jack "B2431" wrote in message ... From: john On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 03:17:29 GMT, "Jack G" wrote: You forgot to mention the Baghdad Terrorist Times - sure to give you as unbiased reporting as the other 3 mentioned. Jack "john" wrote in message And why is it that reports from the troops in Iraq suggest that the public is not seeing anything close to the whole picture of what is taking place there? Because reporting the whole picture of what is taking place there would would make it harder to oust Bush next November. US mainstream media isn't going to do anything like that. So you want to know what is really going on? Here's the full skinny--from the average Iraqi point of view. There is 70% unemployment There is a shortage of gasoline There is a shortage of benzene to provide heat as winter approaches. electricity is on infrequently both day and night. fresh water is in short supply crime is rampant--car jacking is on the rise woman are afraid to go out at night You had better not be around when anyone starts shooting at the Americans--the Americans are shooting 360 degrees at anything. I guess, other than that, everything is OK. Electricity and water supplies were short before the war and getting worse bcause the systems were not getting repaired with the food-for-oil money Saddam was building palaces with. Gasoline would be in better supply if the bad guys weren't disrupting the flow. Want to continue? Well, good old JACK.S: How about pointing out the items which you know are incorrect? You condemn the best newspapers in the country for being biased. So if any of the newspapers made any of the above statements it would not be true because they have a biased outlook. Is that correct? You are one ignorant *******. The papers in question have repeatedly pointed out the problems without explaining things were either worse or just as bad when Saddam was running things. If you wish to debate like an adult stop with the name calling. Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
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