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single pilot ifr trip tonight



 
 
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  #11  
Old October 30th 03, 05:44 PM
Maule Driver
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"Lynne Miller" wrote in message
om...
I am sorry if this offends anybody, however this sentence "It did give
me a very good appreciation for GPS though... I wouldn't fly
passengers in actual without it..." is quite concerning to me. I
understand that each person has a different comfort level, but what is
happening to the pilots of today when we are no longer comfortable
flying passengers without the use of GPS? What happened to VOR and ADF
skills? Maybe rather than not flying passengers without GPS, it would
be a better idea of going to get some dual in VOR and ADF usage so you
are comfortable flying with passengers without the use of GPS.

Valid point. On my last CC I spent some time practicing my VOR navigation
simply because once again I found myself losing what little 'touch' I had.
Haven't done a VOR approach in awhile though.

I don't have an ADF - only have book learning and with zero experience.

I think the opposite applies in some cases - while a lot of people rely on
GPSs, not everyone is proficient using the particular unit they are relying
on. They seem both easier and more challenging if that's possible.


  #12  
Old October 31st 03, 01:51 AM
Guy Elden Jr.
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"Lynne Miller" wrote in message
om...
I am sorry if this offends anybody, however this sentence "It did give
me a very good appreciation for GPS though... I wouldn't fly
passengers in actual without it..." is quite concerning to me. I
understand that each person has a different comfort level, but what is
happening to the pilots of today when we are no longer comfortable
flying passengers without the use of GPS? What happened to VOR and ADF
skills? Maybe rather than not flying passengers without GPS, it would
be a better idea of going to get some dual in VOR and ADF usage so you
are comfortable flying with passengers without the use of GPS.


It's not about a comfort level for me... it's about pilot workload. There is
a tremendous amount of work involved in flying heads down in the clouds, so
any device that can help alleviate that load is welcome by me. It may be
legal to fly in instrument conditions with two VORs and an ADF, but is it
really safe if you're the only pilot in the plane, weather is forming all
around you, and you have to hand fly the plane? My instructor is definitely
of the opinion (and I share the same view) that it is not.

I make it a point to be proficient at using all of the equipment available
in the plane... VOR, NDB, COM, Transponder, GPS, Autopilot in my case. If
any (or all) of them went TU, no problem, I know the emergency procedures
very well. But I don't think it's worth it to risk the lives of anybody but
myself if I don't have every single one of those "assistants" helping me out
when I'm the only pilot in the plane.

--
Guy Elden Jr.



  #13  
Old October 31st 03, 05:01 AM
David Megginson
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"Guy Elden Jr." writes:

It may be legal to fly in instrument conditions with two VORs and an
ADF, but is it really safe if you're the only pilot in the plane,
weather is forming all around you, and you have to hand fly the
plane?


Why wouldn't it be safe? I have nothing against GPS or an autopilot
-- I'll happily accept the gift of a Garmin 530 and/or STEC 30
installed in my Warrior from the first person who offers -- but even
though I'm a very new IFR pilot (only since last August), I've flown
myself and my family several times in solid IMC, day and night, using
the VORs and the ADF. As far as workload goes, I don't think it's any
harder tuning in a VOR frequency than it is selecting three or four
alphanumerics with a rocker switch or buttons for a GPS waypoint.

The only time I'd be reluctant to trust VOR or ADF for enroute would
be flying through a canyon or something similar, where a mile or so
off course would matter quite a bit. I don't live near any terrain
that high, though.


All the best,


David

  #14  
Old October 31st 03, 05:49 AM
Teacherjh
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It may be
legal to fly in instrument conditions with two VORs and an ADF, but is it
really safe if you're the only pilot in the plane, weather is forming all
around you, and you have to hand fly the plane?


That depends on the proficiency of the pilot. In the long term, (over)
reliance on GPS reduces your proficiency in the cockpit. This can come back to
bite.

Jose


--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)
  #15  
Old October 31st 03, 04:13 PM
Lynne Miller
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I think it is very safe to fly the airplane with two VORs and ADF, if
you are a proficient instrument pilot. This was done for thirty plus
years prior to GPS coming into the cockpit without much problem.
Remember, GPS is still a rather new invention when it comes to
aviation usage.

Lynne

"Guy Elden Jr." wrote in message ...
It may be
legal to fly in instrument conditions with two VORs and an ADF, but is it
really safe if you're the only pilot in the plane, weather is forming all
around you, and you have to hand fly the plane? My instructor is definitely
of the opinion (and I share the same view) that it is not.

  #17  
Old October 31st 03, 04:39 PM
Snowbird
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David Megginson wrote in message ...
"Guy Elden Jr." writes:
It may be legal to fly in instrument conditions with two VORs and an
ADF, but is it really safe if you're the only pilot in the plane,
weather is forming all around you, and you have to hand fly the
plane?


Why wouldn't it be safe?


With all respect, David, I think you and "Maule Guy" are
letting Troller Chick (*aka Lynne Miller* -- remember
"Slav Inger is getting a tattoo" and "throw out that
checklist" etc etc) get it mixed for you.

There's a distinction between proficiency/capability and
safety. And safety is a continuum, where safe/unsafe are
a matter of personal limits.

For example, obviously it's possible to complete a night
IMC flight safely in a single-engine plane equipped with
VOR and ADF. It's possible to be proficient with these
navaids and to know your position with a fair degree of
certainty. Yet some people would argue that night IMC
in a single engine plane is not a safe trip for pax, and
they have an inarguable point IMO. If the fan quits in a
SE plane, your options are strictly limited, no matter
how proficient and capable and situationally aware you are.
Night, IMC, and night IMC both decrease your options.

If someone's personal limits don't allow them to take
pax IMC in a single, I have no argument against their view
even though my own personal limits differ and we fly our
daughter SE IMC.

There's a similar issue with GPS. Yes, it's possible
to know exactly where you are w/ 2 VORs and an ADF,
but single pilot IMC, there's no question it's higher
workload-- may require retuning stations and resetting
radials with the possibility for undetected error which
this entails. And this is true no matter how proficient
and capable you are with the equipment.

GPS adds situational awareness and capability. Thus
it adds safety. If you start smelling smoke, a handheld
GPS gives you the option to slap the master switch off
while maintaining the ability to navigate. If the fan
quits, it will take you to the nearest airport at the
touch of a button. IMO it's just as inarguable that
GPS adds safety and that it's a perfectly reasonable view
to say "I wouldn't fly pax in IMC without it" -- and this
has absolutely nothing to do with VOR/ADF proficiency.

Now, a multiengine plane and the continued proficiency to
fly it safely are a significant capitol investment.

But a useful handheld GPS can be had for a couple hundred
bucks. Maybe less if you shop carefully for a used unit.

So don't dismiss the viewpoint that it's unsafe to fly pax
IMC without a GPS. Think about your plans if you start
smelling electrical smoke in IMC (BTDT), or if the engine quits,
or even if you have a vacuum failure or wx is forming around
you and you have to scurry for an airport in a hurry. That
GPS adds a lot of safety "bang for the buck" and I have no
argument against the viewpoint of someone who wouldn't leave
home IMC without it.

Best,
Sydney
  #18  
Old October 31st 03, 04:56 PM
David Megginson
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(Snowbird) writes:

So don't dismiss the viewpoint that it's unsafe to fly pax
IMC without a GPS. Think about your plans if you start
smelling electrical smoke in IMC (BTDT), or if the engine quits,
or even if you have a vacuum failure or wx is forming around
you and you have to scurry for an airport in a hurry. That
GPS adds a lot of safety "bang for the buck" and I have no
argument against the viewpoint of someone who wouldn't leave
home IMC without it.


I agree entirely that a handheld GPS in the flightbag is an excellent
safety investment, precisely because it gives you a way to navigate
independent of the plane's systems. Ditto for a cellphone with a
headset adapter (handheld VHF transcievers have lousy ranges, but over
populated areas, you can almost always hit a cell).

I didn't have the impression, though, that the poster was writing
about emergency backup -- I had the impression that he (and his
instructor) thought that flying with VOR or ADF was somehow more
dangerous than flying with GPS. In fact, if we're talking about using
a handheld GPS in IMC, we're talking about extra workload, because the
pilot has to tune in the VOR and/or ADF and *then* tune the handheld
backup as well. It may be worthwhile sometimes, but there's a price
to consider.

As I mentioned in a previous posting, none of that navigational
equipment addresses the main safety requirement in IMC, keeping the
plane upright. I would agree that using with *any* equipment you're
not proficient with is a dangerous distraction, but given equal
proficiency, tuning and spinning an ADF or VOR receiver involves no
higher a workload than fiddling with GPS buttons.

The poster also mentioned flying with an autopilot, though it fell out
of the followups. That makes a lot more sense as a personal safety
minimum, since the AP does actually help to keep the wings level.
Personally, I'm happy to hand fly, but I believe that my plane would
be safer if it had a simple wing-leveller that I could hit as a panic
button if I ever experienced extreme vertigo. I'm willing to fly
without it, but I can respect that other people might not be.


All the best,


David

  #19  
Old October 31st 03, 05:01 PM
Peter R.
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David Megginson ) wrote:

The poster also mentioned flying with an autopilot, though it fell out
of the followups. That makes a lot more sense as a personal safety
minimum, since the AP does actually help to keep the wings level.
Personally, I'm happy to hand fly, but I believe that my plane would
be safer if it had a simple wing-leveller that I could hit as a panic
button if I ever experienced extreme vertigo. I'm willing to fly
without it, but I can respect that other people might not be.


Interesting you mention this point. I am in the process of watching a few
of the Richard Collins Sporty's aviation DVDs. In the IFR Tips and
Techniques DVD, he offers a PoV that suggest a pilot hand flying in IMC
does not necessarily have the big picture view that a pilot who uses an AP
might.

--
Peter












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  #20  
Old October 31st 03, 05:11 PM
David Megginson
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Peter R. writes:

Interesting you mention this point. I am in the process of watching
a few of the Richard Collins Sporty's aviation DVDs. In the IFR
Tips and Techniques DVD, he offers a PoV that suggest a pilot hand
flying in IMC does not necessarily have the big picture view that a
pilot who uses an AP might.


I haven't heard that before. Is it because hand flying doesn't leave
you as much time to look at charts, etc., and interpret secondary
information?


All the best,


David
 




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