Mini-Winch for FES

On Friday, March 6, 2020 at 4:20:40 PM UTC-8, wrote:
I did watch a live demo of a high-performance jet sustainer glider using an auto tow on a short rope (IIRC, a conventional aerotow rope) to get the sailplane moving fast enough to spin up the jet and get off the ground, at which point (less than 100 feet) the pilot released and climbed away, with plenty of room to land straight ahead on the [hard surface] runway if necessary. Pretty impressive. But no interference with an FES prop to worry about.

I also watched an FES ASW 27 self launch a few years ago from a hard surface runway. Also pretty impressive.

Chip Bearden
JB

Chip,

I talked to a JS pilot at Little Rock that does that regularly. He and his wife have it pretty well dialed in.

As I understood the initial discussions, I didn't hear anyone proposing launching with FES running. They would just use the belly hook on the aircraft for the initial launch and then start the FES. Not a bad option if you have enough runway to leave options.

Waiting for spring...

Craig Funston
JN

On 3/5/20 3:44 PM, Mike N. wrote:
More on topic, Paul's original post seems to have the most practical solution.

Auto towing of an FES glider to a safe height to either fly out on FES power or allowing a safe return to the field, seems a great and practical solution.

Not a great solution. Fes gliders aren't known for having any large
reserves of power, so using a chunk of it to reach a reasonable height
is going to leave little for a self-retrieve.



Consider soaring sites at small airfields with neither tow plane or winch available.

Bring your glider to the site with your tow vehicle, then auto tow using the same vehicle. Think of the potential for flying from small sites.

No offense Paul, but maybe a mini winch for FES launching is a solution looking for a problem.


Here's an idea, how about buying an actual self-launch glider, something
that was designed, tested, and certified for the job??

On Wednesday, March 4, 2020 at 8:40:53 AM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
Agree with other posters, not sure how much you'd save in terms of
money/effort/time with a mini winch vs a regular one.

Speaking of that, what ever happened to the great electric winch project
up at Bend OR that set the internet on fire not so long ago?

Still a work in progress. Whether it will operate this year remains to be seen.

On Wednesday, March 4, 2020 at 10:06:50 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, March 4, 2020 at 12:38:57 AM UTC-5, Paul Remde wrote:
Hi,

This is just a thought...

I’ve recently been extremely interested in the FES (Front Electric Sustainer) sailplanes. They are becoming quite popular. Even very high-performance racing sailplanes like the Ventus 3 are being sold with FES systems installed.

I am the U.S. dealer for DG/LS and they offer the LS8e neo with FES and the new DG-1001e neo with FES prototype will fly very soon. It will be the first 2-seat sailplane with FES. I would love to trade my DG-1000S in for a DG-1001e neo with FES, but so far my DG-1000S co-owners aren't ready for that upgrade.

I'm not very experienced with winches and certainly not an expert on such matters, but I think there may be a nice market for a very small electric winch designed to get an FES-equipped sailplane just up to 100 feet – high enough to use the FES to climb to the first thermal. Even self-launch capable FES sailplanes would benefit from a small winch because they would save much more of the sailplane's battery for use later in the flight - since the initial takeoff roll requires a lot of power.

You can see an interesting video showing an FES-equipped sailplane taking an autotow to about 100 feet he
https://youtu.be/pTeNKM2cXQk

I would think that an electric winch could get a glider to 100 feet quite easily and be quite small and relatively inexpensive. The rope needed would be much less, and the drum could be much smaller – I imagine.

A "level ground bungee launch" to 100 feet would be another interesting option. But I would think that would have risks from by the bungee snapping or coming loose and hurting someone.

Any thoughts...? I'm just dreaming about the future of gliding...

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

Stupid question: since FES (Front Electric Sustainer) sailplanes have a propeller in the front, with very little ground clearance, how would you attach a tow rope without interfering with the propeller? Perhaps you mean a winch launch with the propeller stowed, turning on the FES after releasing from the rope. Seems like doing that at 100 feet is not a great idea, even though FES startup is a lot simpler and quicker than with other sailplane motor arrangements. So at the least you'd want to go to 300 feet or so - high enough to try and start the FES, and land safely if that does not work.

And as Herb said, for a good acceleration at the start, you'd still need a lot of power (at least 100 KW), nothing "mini" about that.

Yeah I'd like to hear more about (full-size) electric winches in development. With the progress being made on electric cars (and trucks) and their batteries that seems like the future of winches.

400ft would be the minimum safe working altitude IMVHO.

On Wednesday, March 4, 2020 at 12:34:32 PM UTC-7, AS wrote:
On Wednesday, March 4, 2020 at 10:40:53 AM UTC-5, kinsell wrote:
Agree with other posters, not sure how much you'd save in terms of
money/effort/time with a mini winch vs a regular one.

Speaking of that, what ever happened to the great electric winch project
up at Bend OR that set the internet on fire not so long ago?


There was a paper given at the last SSA convention by Bill Daniels about his electric winch development - at least it was on the roster. I couldn't make it to the convention; does anyone know if this talk was recorded and will be made available?
Uli
'AS'

Hello winch head. Missed seeing you. Bill's talk updated progress on the electric winch and some design changes going forward with the design. I suppose Bill might provide a copy w/audio like he did previously. I'll ping him abotu that. He desktop died after returning from Little Rock, so he's working on a laptop at the moment, until he finds a replacement. AFAIK, the live session was not recorded.

Frank Whiteley

On Friday, March 6, 2020 at 10:44:25 PM UTC-5, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Wednesday, March 4, 2020 at 12:34:32 PM UTC-7, AS wrote:
On Wednesday, March 4, 2020 at 10:40:53 AM UTC-5, kinsell wrote:
Agree with other posters, not sure how much you'd save in terms of
money/effort/time with a mini winch vs a regular one.

Speaking of that, what ever happened to the great electric winch project
up at Bend OR that set the internet on fire not so long ago?


There was a paper given at the last SSA convention by Bill Daniels about his electric winch development - at least it was on the roster. I couldn't make it to the convention; does anyone know if this talk was recorded and will be made available?
Uli
'AS'

Hello winch head. Missed seeing you. Bill's talk updated progress on the electric winch and some design changes going forward with the design. I suppose Bill might provide a copy w/audio like he did previously. I'll ping him abotu that. He desktop died after returning from Little Rock, so he's working on a laptop at the moment, until he finds a replacement. AFAIK, the live session was not recorded.

Frank Whiteley

Thanks for the update, Frank!
Uli
'AS'

On Wednesday, March 4, 2020 at 12:38:57 AM UTC-5, Paul Remde wrote:
Hi,

This is just a thought...

I’ve recently been extremely interested in the FES (Front Electric Sustainer) sailplanes. They are becoming quite popular. Even very high-performance racing sailplanes like the Ventus 3 are being sold with FES systems installed.

I am the U.S. dealer for DG/LS and they offer the LS8e neo with FES and the new DG-1001e neo with FES prototype will fly very soon. It will be the first 2-seat sailplane with FES. I would love to trade my DG-1000S in for a DG-1001e neo with FES, but so far my DG-1000S co-owners aren't ready for that upgrade.

I'm not very experienced with winches and certainly not an expert on such matters, but I think there may be a nice market for a very small electric winch designed to get an FES-equipped sailplane just up to 100 feet – high enough to use the FES to climb to the first thermal. Even self-launch capable FES sailplanes would benefit from a small winch because they would save much more of the sailplane's battery for use later in the flight - since the initial takeoff roll requires a lot of power.

You can see an interesting video showing an FES-equipped sailplane taking an autotow to about 100 feet he
https://youtu.be/pTeNKM2cXQk

I would think that an electric winch could get a glider to 100 feet quite easily and be quite small and relatively inexpensive. The rope needed would be much less, and the drum could be much smaller – I imagine.

A "level ground bungee launch" to 100 feet would be another interesting option. But I would think that would have risks from by the bungee snapping or coming loose and hurting someone.

Any thoughts...? I'm just dreaming about the future of gliding...

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

Then there is the Colditz Cock solution.
A hole in the ground,a rope, a pulley , a weight and clean gravitational energy
Oh , and a horse to rewind the weight.
JMF

Actually, that is not the worst of the ideas. Safer than other ideas for sure.
Mixed with the idea of the compound pulley and truck the hole does not need to be too deep

On Saturday, March 7, 2020 at 4:29:58 PM UTC+13, kinsell wrote:

Here's an idea, how about buying an actual self-launch glider, something
that was designed, tested, and certified for the job??

Dave Nadler's SSA Convention presentation disabused me of that notion.

On Saturday, March 7, 2020 at 10:20:05 AM UTC-6, Emir Sherbi wrote:
Actually, that is not the worst of the ideas. Safer than other ideas for sure.
Mixed with the idea of the compound pulley and truck the hole does not need to be too deep

As I mentioned before, anyone heard of the Wright Brothers and their 1903 Flyer? Pretty quick acceleration to flight speed over a short distance.