Busted ADIZ - What Now?

I haven't posted to this group for months so forgive me if this has been
discussed in other thread.

I'm looking for advice on how to respond to an FAA order suspending my
ticket. I've read and posted here for some time but I stopped after
last May. I respect the opinions of most in this group, so I'll check
with all of you before I make up my mind.

I clipped the DC ADIZ back in May. I was flying out of Frederick, MD
and meant to head for Harper's Ferry. I read the Potomac River wrong
and flew straight south into the ADIZ near Dulles before correcting to
the west. After I landed, the FBO staff informed me that the FAA wanted
to have a chat. I called them and, several days later, filed my report.

It was my second or third flight out of FDK. I'm new to Maryland and
only have 100 hours in my log book. I knew the rules of the ADIZ. I
basically failed to establish a correct heading after takeoff due to
stress and rusty skills; I froze, and kept blundering forward,
essentially lost for several minutes on a sunny day. The GPS was
different from what I was used to and I meant to practice VOR-only nav
that day. I felt pretty shook up for a few minutes but completed the
rest of the flight without problems.

So, I've got this letter presenting the order and several options. I
can appeal the order either formally or informally. I could have gotten
a waiver but that would have required a "timely" safety report to NASA,
which I didn't do. I (or an attorney on my behalf) can send in another
report, furthing explaining what happened. Or, I can simply surrender my
certificate.

The way I look at it, I simply screwed up and probably need remedial
training. But I can't train without a ticket. I don't see how I can
get around the penalty, since it's justified. Should I seek legal
counsel from AOPA? Doesn't seem worth the time to me.

I'm pretty discouraged and haven't been interested in flying ever since
I left the FBO that day. I did my homework before the flight, always
prided myself on knowing the rules of the system... but when it came
right down to it, I just didn't fly right. Now I'm wondering, as a
renter, when I'll ever be confident of my skills. Unless I continue
pursuing my IR (aborted last year when I moved) and really spend a lot
of time up there (and a lot of cash), what good is it? I'll just be a
sucky 20-hour-per-year pilot.

What would you do?

--Scott

Scott Lowrey wrote:

What would you do?

I assume from some comments you made that you're an AOPA member. I would get legal
advice from them. It may be that the cost of fighting the suspension is too high
(that's a decision for you to make), but you might be able to get it reduced. How
long is the suspension period?

This sort of situation is exactly why I signed up for AOPA's legal plan a few years
ago.

George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.

I would echo exactly what George posted. Call AOPA and discuss it with
them. They will know what your options are and what your chances are
with each.

I added the legal services option with my AOPA renewal, too. For
anyone who routinely flys around DC, NY or anyplace else where there
are oodles of needless flight restrictions (like near Seattle where I
live), I think the AOPA legal services option makes a OT of sense.

Good luck and don't let things keep you down.

In article 5L4Vc.38839$mD.35434@attbi_s02, Scott Lowrey
wrote:

I haven't posted to this group for months so forgive me if this has been
discussed in other thread.

I'm looking for advice on how to respond to an FAA order suspending my
ticket. I've read and posted here for some time but I stopped after
last May. I respect the opinions of most in this group, so I'll check
with all of you before I make up my mind.

I clipped the DC ADIZ back in May. I was flying out of Frederick, MD
and meant to head for Harper's Ferry. I read the Potomac River wrong
and flew straight south into the ADIZ near Dulles before correcting to
the west. After I landed, the FBO staff informed me that the FAA wanted
to have a chat. I called them and, several days later, filed my report.

It was my second or third flight out of FDK. I'm new to Maryland and
only have 100 hours in my log book. I knew the rules of the ADIZ. I
basically failed to establish a correct heading after takeoff due to
stress and rusty skills; I froze, and kept blundering forward,
essentially lost for several minutes on a sunny day. The GPS was
different from what I was used to and I meant to practice VOR-only nav
that day. I felt pretty shook up for a few minutes but completed the
rest of the flight without problems.

So, I've got this letter presenting the order and several options. I
can appeal the order either formally or informally. I could have gotten
a waiver but that would have required a "timely" safety report to NASA,
which I didn't do. I (or an attorney on my behalf) can send in another
report, furthing explaining what happened. Or, I can simply surrender my
certificate.

The way I look at it, I simply screwed up and probably need remedial
training. But I can't train without a ticket. I don't see how I can
get around the penalty, since it's justified. Should I seek legal
counsel from AOPA? Doesn't seem worth the time to me.

I'm pretty discouraged and haven't been interested in flying ever since
I left the FBO that day. I did my homework before the flight, always
prided myself on knowing the rules of the system... but when it came
right down to it, I just didn't fly right. Now I'm wondering, as a
renter, when I'll ever be confident of my skills. Unless I continue
pursuing my IR (aborted last year when I moved) and really spend a lot
of time up there (and a lot of cash), what good is it? I'll just be a
sucky 20-hour-per-year pilot.

What would you do?

--Scott

The way I look at it, I simply screwed up and probably need remedial
training. ... I don't see how I can get around the penalty, since it's
justified.

First of all, I respect you for admitting that you done wrong, and not
simply portraying yourself as a victim. That kind of attitude tells me that
you are the kind of guy that I want to share the sky with, unlike the
multitudes of butt-nuggets out there who think that the rules don't apply to
them.

I'm pretty discouraged and haven't been interested in flying ever since
I left the FBO that day. I did my homework before the flight, always
prided myself on knowing the rules of the system... but when it came
right down to it, I just didn't fly right.

You are seriously down on yourself. To some extent, that's admirable. You
are being brutally objective in evaluating both your behavior and your
skills. Again, that's a signal to me that you have the makings of a very
good pilot. But -- and this is just my opinion -- I think you may be taking
this self-criticism too far. You are new to the DC area. You are new to
flying. The rules you busted are relatively new and subject to change on a
frequent basis. That doesn't make it right to break them, but it does make
what you did a bit more understandable. As someone with just under 100
hours myself, I can completely understand how my own modest skills could go
completely pear-shaped in the same situation. I think anyone who has ever
flown can relate to what happened, especially if they think back to their
own skill level back when they had just 100 hours in their own logbooks.

Now I'm wondering, as a renter, when I'll ever be confident of my skills.
Unless I continue pursuing my IR (aborted last year when I moved) and
really spend a lot of time up there (and a lot of cash), what good is it?
I'll just be a sucky 20-hour-per-year pilot.

When I finished my checkride, I got a lot of people giving me the
age-old-cliche that the Private Pilot's certificate is a "license to learn".
You only get better by doing it more, and one of the ways that you learn is
by making a mistake now and again. Sure, you made a mistake, but I can tell
from what you have written that you have learned a great deal from what
happened. I can understand a crisis of confidence, but the only way to get
past that is to get up there and fly some more.

So, I've got this letter presenting the order and several options. I
can appeal the order either formally or informally.

What would you do?

Scott, you don't sound like you are willing to go through the trouble and
expense of a formal appeal, but what is involved in doing it informally? Do
you have a number you can call to ask what's involved in an informal appeal?
At the very least, I would call AOPA and ask them what's involved. Heck,
since you are right there in Fredrick, you could even walk in and ask them
about how these things work.

I don't know how uptight the FAA is about the ADIZ. Maybe it is hopeless,
but they would have to be pretty heartless and blind to ignore the fact that
you are simply a low-time pilot who made a mistake, and they surely couldn't
help but notice the fact that you have learned from your mistake.

In any event, I hope that you don't just simply give up and turn in your
certificate. You invested thousands of dollars and a huge chunk of time to
get it in the first place, and you really seem like the type of person who
we need more of in GA. You have a good head on your shoulders, you are
willing to listen and learn, and you aren't so egotistical that you think
the rules don't apply to you. I wish there were more people like that in
this industry. I can understand not wanting to make a formal proceeding out
of this situation, but I would at least try to use the informal route to
save my ticket and keep learning.

And don't lose your confidence. From what I can see, you are a good pilot,
Scott. I've never even met you, and I'd already fly with you.





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For starters, don't believe everything here.

Next -- if you are a member of AOPA contact the legal dept.

If you are not a member of AOPA, find a good aviation lawyer
in your area.

Lastly -- stop talking about it in public. Talk to your
lawyer and only your lawyer.

harsh, but necessary.

Blanche writes:

Lastly -- stop talking about it in public. Talk to your
lawyer and only your lawyer.

But *please* summarize when you're done. Think of the next guy.

--kyler

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:41:37 GMT, Scott Lowrey
wrote:

I knew the rules of the ADIZ. I
basically failed to establish a correct heading after takeoff due to
stress and rusty skills; I froze, and kept blundering forward,
essentially lost for several minutes on a sunny day. The GPS was
different from what I was used to and I meant to practice VOR-only nav
that day. I felt pretty shook up for a few minutes but completed the
rest of the flight without problems.


I'm not sure what to tell you as far as proceeding with the legal
aspect of this, but I'd at least call AOPA.

It seems as though you've identified where your problem is...a
deficiency in pilotage/navigation. Whether you lose your ticket for
30/90 days or not, I wouldn't quit; I'd get with an instructor for a
few lessons, turn the VORs and GPS off and get confident in your
skills with a map and compass. Your whole issue started when you
didn't identify Potomac river correctly. With better VFR navigation
skills this might not have happened. Having an IFR ticket won't help
build these skills.

As far as being a sucky 20 hr/yr pilot, if you keep learning and keep
working on your skills eventually you'll be a good 20 hr/yr pilot. I
know many people who don't get into the 50 or 100 hr per year flight
time, but because they make the most out of their flights they are
very safe and competent people.

If it makes you feel any better at lunch today my friend and I told
each other stories of mistakes we made as students, and looked at how
valuable each lesson was where a mistake happened. Nobody's perfect
as much as we'd like to be.

HTH
z

P.S. Maybe if you offer the FAA the option of excepting 10 or so hour
remedial training program they'd back off a bit. They might want a
609 ride after the training is done, but it's worth a shot and you can
keep flying.

"Scott Lowrey" wrote in message
news:5L4Vc.38839$mD.35434@attbi_s02...
What would you do?


As everyone else has said, stop talking about this in public and contact
AOPA's legal department. They will give you a direction. If you are not on
their legal plan, it may be better for you to get your own lawyer; again,
they will tell you and point you in the right direction.

They NEED to know about these things, even if you don't use them for any
legal help.

You spent a lot of time and effort getting your pilot's certificate. Don't
let these stupid rules end it. Get some REAL legal assistance and follow
it. Whatever happens, make the best of it and move on. You will be flying
again soon.

..

Scott Lowrey wrote:
Should I seek legal counsel from AOPA?

Yes!

Doesn't seem worth the time to me.

How much time will it take? How much time are you willing to spend?

What would you do?

Get legal help, request an informal appeal, and counter-offer a penalty
of remedial training.

If it is within 3 months of the incident file an ASRS report.
This will be processed and added to a database of many other aviations
mistakes. When they are done getting the information from the report they
mail you back a slip which proves you made an ASRS report. Now that slip is
a "get out of jail free card" if the FAA does come after you say that you
filed the ASRS report. NOTE: this can only be used as a get out of jail free
card once every 3 years..( I think maybe longer). So file that report. You
can pick up a form from the local FBO or airport!

GOOD Luck!

Troy



"Scott Lowrey" wrote in message
news:5L4Vc.38839$mD.35434@attbi_s02...
I haven't posted to this group for months so forgive me if this has been
discussed in other thread.

I'm looking for advice on how to respond to an FAA order suspending my
ticket. I've read and posted here for some time but I stopped after
last May. I respect the opinions of most in this group, so I'll check
with all of you before I make up my mind.

I clipped the DC ADIZ back in May. I was flying out of Frederick, MD
and meant to head for Harper's Ferry. I read the Potomac River wrong
and flew straight south into the ADIZ near Dulles before correcting to
the west. After I landed, the FBO staff informed me that the FAA wanted
to have a chat. I called them and, several days later, filed my report.

It was my second or third flight out of FDK. I'm new to Maryland and
only have 100 hours in my log book. I knew the rules of the ADIZ. I
basically failed to establish a correct heading after takeoff due to
stress and rusty skills; I froze, and kept blundering forward,
essentially lost for several minutes on a sunny day. The GPS was
different from what I was used to and I meant to practice VOR-only nav
that day. I felt pretty shook up for a few minutes but completed the
rest of the flight without problems.

So, I've got this letter presenting the order and several options. I
can appeal the order either formally or informally. I could have gotten
a waiver but that would have required a "timely" safety report to NASA,
which I didn't do. I (or an attorney on my behalf) can send in another
report, furthing explaining what happened. Or, I can simply surrender my
certificate.

The way I look at it, I simply screwed up and probably need remedial
training. But I can't train without a ticket. I don't see how I can
get around the penalty, since it's justified. Should I seek legal
counsel from AOPA? Doesn't seem worth the time to me.

I'm pretty discouraged and haven't been interested in flying ever since
I left the FBO that day. I did my homework before the flight, always
prided myself on knowing the rules of the system... but when it came
right down to it, I just didn't fly right. Now I'm wondering, as a
renter, when I'll ever be confident of my skills. Unless I continue
pursuing my IR (aborted last year when I moved) and really spend a lot
of time up there (and a lot of cash), what good is it? I'll just be a
sucky 20-hour-per-year pilot.

What would you do?

--Scott