bush rules!

The bottom line is this:

During the Vietnam era it wasn't too difficult for the draft
age sons of the wealthy and/or politically well placed to
find ways of avoiding the posibility of going to Vietnam or
in many cases avoiding military service altogether!

That said, I think at the time, most of the reluctance to
serve in the military was more of an issue of facing the
regementation, dicipline and the loss of personal freedoms
encountered in every day military life rather than the fear
of bodily harm from combat in Vietnam.

"DO YOU MISS YOUR MOMMY!"

"WHAT'S MARYJANE ROTTENCROTCH DOING WHILE YOU'RE AWAY
MAGGOT!"

The prospect of Boot Camp and military service was ( and
probably still is) just plain scary!

Before 1965, joining the service was a way out of poverty
for many young men and was generally looked upon with
respect. I joined the service right out of high school
because I wanted adventure plus I felt that I was serving my
country. For me it was a way to travel and see the world.

One side effect of the Draft and Vietnam war in the 1960s
was the number of young men who went to college or got
married and had children just to get a Draft Deferment.

One friend went to school from 1962 until 1969. He got
married and had 2 kids. When he finally graduated, he got
drafted and spent a year in 'Nam as a grunt.

Things changed after 1965. There were many young men who
enlisted the same day they received a notice from their
Draft Board. They tried to get into the Air Force or Navy
(or reserves) thinking that a 4 year enlistment was better
than 2 years in the Army as a draftee.

I volunteered, that was my choice and like most people who
served their country whether they got drafted or enlisted, I
was not a hero nor did I do anything special. I just did my
duty. Like most, I was "Shot at and missed, **** at and
hit"!

I never really faulted most people for trying to avoid
military service. However I never respected poor little rich
kids who landed cushy positions in the reserves or received
some kind of deferement because mommy and daddy didn't want
to see little Jr. come home in a box. What about all of the
thousands of poorer kids who had no choice!

Yes, Bill Clinton avoided getting drafted but so did most of
the young men who attended college in the late 60s including
many prominent members of George Ws entourage especially
Cheney who "had other things to do"!

Whether we ever find the truth about W's service record
(along with his pre-1995 Texas driver's license record) will
be a subject for debate.

One thing that rubs me wrong is that George W got an early
discharge from the Texas ANG so that he could attend
graduate school. Now isn't that special!

I was due to be discharged in October, 1965. I was trying to
"get a Cut", an early discharge to attend school myself. On
August 20, 1965, ALL members of the US Navy and Marines got
an involuntary 4 month extention at the convience of the
government tagged on to their enlistment. I don't remember
how long the extention was in effect but it sure messed up
my plans. My dad wasn't a congressman.

A more important issue that affects all of is is that we
have gotten bogged down in a quagmire in Iraq, led there by
a bunch of Chicken Hawks who never heard a shot fired in
anger!

"* * Chas" wrote in message
om...
The bottom line is this:

During the Vietnam era it wasn't too difficult for the draft
age sons of the wealthy and/or politically well placed to
find ways of avoiding the posibility of going to Vietnam or
in many cases avoiding military service altogether!

But you are a fake Vet, Chad; much like Kerry's peers before Congress in
'72.

"* * Chas" wrote in message
om...

snip


Yes, Bill Clinton avoided getting drafted but so did most of
the young men who attended college in the late 60s

But "most of the young men" did not play footsie with the ROTC PMS to get a
deferment, then as soon as it became obvious they were not going to be
drafted anyway, dump the ROTC program with a letter that states they
"loathed" the folks who *were* serving in *any* capacity--Clinton did.

including
many prominent members of George Ws entourage especially
Cheney who "had other things to do"!

Whether we ever find the truth about W's service record

The truth has been published, and has been repeatedly "discovered", and the
folks claiming he failed to perform the duties he was required to perform
have not been able to prove their case; when the New York Times, which is
definitely no friend of GWB, investigates the claims and concludes that he
did indeed meet his obligations, then you gotta wonder about the basis for
thses claims.

(along with his pre-1995 Texas driver's license record) will
be a subject for debate.

Are there any other specious accusations you'd like to make about GWB? I
mean, gee, the guy has repeatedly admitted he had an alcohol problem, and by
all reports he kicked it. Bully for him. Unlike his predecessor, who clung
to his vices throughout his White House stay, he demonstrated an ability to
overcome his failing in this case.


One thing that rubs me wrong is that George W got an early
discharge from the Texas ANG so that he could attend
graduate school. Now isn't that special!

Yeah! Gosh, I guess you *really* hate Kerry, who got an early discharge as
well, largely because he happened to be serving as an Admiral's aide? Glass
houses and rocks...


I was due to be discharged in October, 1965. I was trying to
"get a Cut", an early discharge to attend school myself. On
August 20, 1965, ALL members of the US Navy and Marines got
an involuntary 4 month extention at the convience of the
government tagged on to their enlistment. I don't remember
how long the extention was in effect but it sure messed up
my plans. My dad wasn't a congressman.

And your supervisor was not an Admiral.


A more important issue that affects all of is is that we
have gotten bogged down in a quagmire in Iraq,

What quagmire? You mean the "quagmire" that saw the ousting of one of the
more ruthless dictators we have seen in recent memory, or the one where we
have now extended the power and telephone grids to serve more people than
they did *before* the war, or the one where the AQ-related fellow just had
his letter intercepted admitting that things were not going too well for the
insurgents, and that they should shift focus to killing more Shiites in a
desperate attempt to foment civil insurrection?

led there by
a bunch of Chicken Hawks who never heard a shot fired in
anger!

Is Colin Powell a "chicken hawk"? How about the former CENTCOM commander,
GEN Franks? If you are referring to the guy in the White House...well, gee,
I guess you REALLY hated Clinton and his "Get Aidid" policy in Somalia, huh?
And how many shots did Gore hear fired in anger during his (short) tour in
Vietnam? And wasn't he the (gasp!) son of a Senator?

Brooks

From: "* * Chas"


The bottom line is this:

During the Vietnam era it wasn't too difficult for the draft
age sons of the wealthy and/or politically well placed to
find ways of avoiding the posibility of going to Vietnam or
in many cases avoiding military service altogether!

I read somewhere reliable that the casualties of rich people in Viet Nam was no
lower than that of the poor. Were there more middle class in Viet Nam than
rich? Yes, ofcourse, the "middle class" population is, and was, bigger than the
upper and lower classes combined.

The percentage of black casualties was roughly the same percentage as the U.S.
black population etc.

Can we find examples of people using influence to get cushy spots? Sure, it
happens throughout society at all levels.

I hardly call joining the guard or reserves avoiding the draft since they are
military services. This is expcially true since there were elements of both who
went to Viet Nam and you can find the names of some of them on the wall.

By the way, being drafted did not ensure a trip to Viet Nam in the infantry.
Draftees were given MOS and posts as needed. If memory serves the percentage of
draftees who saw combat as about 50%.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

"B2431" wrote in message
...
From: "* * Chas"


The bottom line is this:

During the Vietnam era it wasn't too difficult for the draft
age sons of the wealthy and/or politically well placed to
find ways of avoiding the posibility of going to Vietnam or
in many cases avoiding military service altogether!

I read somewhere reliable that the casualties of rich people in Viet Nam
was no
lower than that of the poor. Were there more middle class in Viet Nam than
rich? Yes, ofcourse, the "middle class" population is, and was, bigger
than the
upper and lower classes combined.

The percentage of black casualties was roughly the same percentage as the
U.S.
black population etc.

Can we find examples of people using influence to get cushy spots? Sure,
it
happens throughout society at all levels.

I hardly call joining the guard or reserves avoiding the draft since they
are
military services. This is expcially true since there were elements of
both who
went to Viet Nam and you can find the names of some of them on the wall.

By the way, being drafted did not ensure a trip to Viet Nam in the
infantry.
Draftees were given MOS and posts as needed. If memory serves the
percentage of
draftees who saw combat as about 50%.

While the military effort against Vietnam saw 20% in combat?

* * Chas wrote:

The bottom line is this:

During the Vietnam era it wasn't too difficult for the draft
age sons of the wealthy and/or politically well placed to
find ways of avoiding the posibility of going to Vietnam or
in many cases avoiding military service altogether!

Yes, that's true; they dodged the draft by attending college,
hoping their deferment would last longer than the war.
The wealthy and well-connected had a much easier time gaining
entry somewhere - when there were three qualified male applicants
for every available college slot... and every one of them trying
to dodge the draft.

That said, I think at the time, most of the reluctance to
serve in the military was more of an issue of facing the
regementation, dicipline and the loss of personal freedoms
encountered in every day military life rather than the fear
of bodily harm from combat in Vietnam.

Horse****.
If you were classified 1-A (physically fit and mentally competent)
you would be drafted, period, at age 19 or upon completion of your
four-year college deferment. (Ask me how I know. There was no
draft lottery back then.) With a 1-A classification, most employers
would not hire you - because you would definitely be gone in less
than six months (and they'd be required by law to rehire you if
you returned).

The prospect of Boot Camp and military service was ( and
probably still is) just plain scary!

One side effect of the Draft and Vietnam war in the 1960s
was the number of young men who went to college or got
married and had children just to get a Draft Deferment.

Now you're talking; but the deferment for fathers disappeared
in 1967 or 68.

Things changed after 1965. There were many young men who
enlisted the same day they received a notice from their
Draft Board.

Only in a service that had plenty of openings: the Army or
Marines.

They tried to get into the Air Force or Navy
(or reserves) thinking that a 4 year enlistment was better
than 2 years in the Army as a draftee.

They were right - but very foolish not to have gotten their
name on a waiting list a year earlier. The waiting lists
for the guard, reserves, or Coast Guard in most cases extended
far into the future - longer than any enlistment in one of
those services.
A year's wait was about right - though even the AF was taking
Sky Cops on short notice, as was the Navy hiring common deck
hands for immediate enlistment.

- John T, former Msgt, USAF (drafted during the Tet Offensive,
and magically moved up on the AF waiting list to avoid the
draft by a couple of days.)

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
...

"dougdrivr" wrote in message
...

"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
message
thlink.net...
"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...

During the Vietnam War, National Guard troops stayed in the US
and were only activated for natural disasters and riot control.


That's not correct. On May 13, 1968, 12,234 Army National Guardsmen
in
20
units from 17 states were mobilized for service during the Vietnam
War.
Eight units deployed to Vietnam. One of them, Company D (Ranger),
151st
Infantry, Indiana National Guard, earned distinction as one of the
most
highly decorated combat units of the war.

On January 25, 1968, eight ANG Tactical Fighter Squadrons and three
Tactical
Reconnaissance Squadrons were mobilized. A second callup on April
11
added
two Tactical Fighter Squadrons and an Aeromedical Airlift Squadron.
Four of
the fighter squadrons served in combat in Vietnam, flying F-100Cs.


Thanks.

Were those the only Guardsmen deployed in Vietnam. IF so,
T\that would mean that less than 5% of the troops who
served the US in Vietnam were activated National Guard. I
(also) don't know how many Guardsnmen there were in the US
but I will be careful in the future to say that _almost_
no guardsmen were deployed in Vietnam.

President Johnson called up the Guard and Reserves right after the USS
Pueblo was captured by the North Koreans in January 1968. While he
emphatically stated that the National Guard would not be sent to Viet
Nam,
this was only partially true. The unit flags stayed in the US and the
men
were sent to Viet Nam as replacements. In my Brigade ( the 69th Inf,
mostly
from Kansas, Iowa, and Nebraska), 65% of the enlisted men and 95% of the
Officers were sent to Viet Nam. Thirty-seven members of the 69th were
KIA
while serving in RVN. The number of wounded is not even mentioned.

Interesting; I had thought the guys out of the Hawaii ARNG brigade were
the
only ones who went through that kind of treatment. Incidents like your's
were a sore point in the relationship between the ARNG and active Army for
a
long time. But FYI, a number of ARNG units, complete with flags, were
indeed
deployed to Vietnam under that same mobilization effort. As another poster
has already mentioned, the INARNG's D-51st Inf Co (Ranger) was one, and a
few arty battalions and some CS/CSS units also made the trip. IIRC an arty
unit from the KYARNG was involved in a rather close fight when its
firebase
came under attack. And IIRC those KIA's you mention were not included in
the
ARNG KIA total for the war, since they were considered active component
individual fillers when they became casualties; ISTR the deployed Guard
units suffered just under one hundred KIA during their period in country.

Brooks


Thanks, I didn't know that about the deployed intact units. Someone posted
somewhere else that 5700 of the dead in Viet Nam were National Guard. That
seems a bit high and probably refers to NG casualties. It would be easy
enough to check because in those days your serial number was prefixed with
NG and everyone knew where you came from when you had to deal with
personnel.

From: Dweezil Dwarftosser

snip

Horse****.
If you were classified 1-A (physically fit and mentally competent)
you would be drafted, period, at age 19 or upon completion of your
four-year college deferment. (Ask me how I know. There was no
draft lottery back then.) With a 1-A classification, most employers
would not hire you - because you would definitely be gone in less
than six months (and they'd be required by law to rehire you if
you returned).


There never was a 100% draft of 1-As. Just because you were 19 and 1-A didn't
guarantee you would be drafted. I don't know what the percentages were, but I'd
venture to say it was less than 50%. For every man I personally knew at the
time that was drafted there were a few that weren't.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

B2431 wrote:

From: Dweezil Dwarftosser

snip

Horse****.
If you were classified 1-A (physically fit and mentally competent)
you would be drafted, period, at age 19 or upon completion of your
four-year college deferment. (Ask me how I know. There was no
draft lottery back then.) With a 1-A classification, most employers
would not hire you - because you would definitely be gone in less
than six months (and they'd be required by law to rehire you if
you returned).


There never was a 100% draft of 1-As. Just because you were 19 and 1-A didn't
guarantee you would be drafted. I don't know what the percentages were, but I'd
venture to say it was less than 50%. For every man I personally knew at the
time that was drafted there were a few that weren't.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

The rate varied by locality and time period. When I faced the draft in 1968 it was
essentially 100% for me. I actually heard someone ( no, not me ) commenting to a
friend of mine how lucky my friend had been to get polio as a child and thus be
safe from the draft. I knew years in advance I would have to go. I raised my hand
on May 1, 1968. When I got back to school from that little trip, my notice to
report for a draft physical was in my mail box. It was scheduled for the week
before graduation.

Bob McKellar, who is not whining or complaining, just explaining the times

Bob McKellar wrote:

B2431 wrote:

From: Dweezil Dwarftosser

snip

Horse****.
If you were classified 1-A (physically fit and mentally competent)
you would be drafted, period, at age 19 or upon completion of your
four-year college deferment. (Ask me how I know. There was no
draft lottery back then.) With a 1-A classification, most employers
would not hire you - because you would definitely be gone in less
than six months (and they'd be required by law to rehire you if
you returned).


There never was a 100% draft of 1-As. Just because you were 19 and 1-A didn't
guarantee you would be drafted. I don't know what the percentages were, but I'd
venture to say it was less than 50%. For every man I personally knew at the
time that was drafted there were a few that weren't.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

The rate varied by locality and time period. When I faced the draft in 1968 it was
essentially 100% for me.

The local newspapers reported the "current draft age"
every month; it was a very good indicator of the likely
amount of time you had left. Through 1967, it was 19
years and 10 or 11 months in my area. All of a sudden,
the draft levy increased dramatically after Tet, and
the age dropped accordingly. I was 19 years and 7 mos.
old when I received the notice - and had to report within
ten days of it.

My location: New York City, the Bronx. The draft was 100%
of eligibles, oldest first. It had dropped from 25 in the
early 60s (when it wasn't 100%) to 19 years and 6 months
by March, 1968. All of the older eligibles had been exhausted.