Death of the 13.5m class?

On 12/25/2017 9:37 PM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Monday, December 25, 2017 at 8:15:18 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
wrote on 12/24/2017 6:39 PM:
If this is "soaring," then no external power or induced thrust should be allowed. Start the engine, turn a prop (or turbine, or compressed air jet, or stick an oar out the window or whatever) and you are now a powered aircraft. In competition, the flight STOPS THERE. (Just like the OLC.) No exceptions. If you elect to augment your flight to make it home when getting too low for comfort and do not want to accept a landout, too bad. The scoresheet should reflect that you decided to terminate soaring flight at that point.

Also remember that virtually ALL external power sources (Reciprocating engine, Turbine or Electric CAN fail. And the insidious "Emergency Algorithm" dictates that it will most probably fail at the absolutely WORST time, i.e., too low over bad terrain when you have not previously selected an appropriate landing area and planned how to get in to it safely.

An auxiliary power source is a neat thing to have. Just remember that it is NOT a "Safety" device. It is best if you just treat it as a way to avoid inconvenience. Betting on it to save your sorry butt in a competition (or on any flight) is just asking for trouble.
What about a glider with a rescue parachute? If the motor failed to operate, and
there was no safe place to land, the pilot could use the rescue parachute. The
risk of, say, an electric motor failing to start, AND being over a place where a
landing would harm the pilot, AND the rescue parachute failing is much smaller
than all the other safety risks of flying in a contest. In that case, a pilot with
a motor gives up some weak weather performance to gain more area to fly in,
looking for that elusive thermal. Even if the scoring ends with the motor
starting, having a motor can change how the soaring is done.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/...anes-2014A.pdf
What about a glider with an ejection seat. When your electric glider fails to start and you have no landing options you can eject. No parachute allowed however on the ejection seat...

A wing suit, maybe?Â* Then you could get an extra 10 feet or so of added
distance.
--
Dan, 5J

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“IGC should stick to Gliding.�

Absolutely! Well said!

On Tuesday, December 26, 2017 at 6:19:19 AM UTC-8, Tango Eight wrote:
On Monday, December 25, 2017 at 11:15:18 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Even if the scoring ends with the motor
starting, having a motor can change how the soaring is done.

Behold: honesty. Rare enough to be noteworthy. Thanks, Eric.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

Yes - about as much as having a dedicated crew for the retrieve. They should be penalized equally.

On Tuesday, December 26, 2017 at 7:21:12 PM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
On Tuesday, December 26, 2017 at 6:19:19 AM UTC-8, Tango Eight wrote:
On Monday, December 25, 2017 at 11:15:18 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Even if the scoring ends with the motor
starting, having a motor can change how the soaring is done.

Behold: honesty. Rare enough to be noteworthy. Thanks, Eric.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

Yes - about as much as having a dedicated crew for the retrieve. They should be penalized equally.

On a 1750 km triangle attempt, which would YOU rather have?

I find the fuss to be somewhat funny.

It is actually a pretty interesting concept. Call using a motor on course whatever you want, but it makes for an interesting game.

The sport is all about managing energy. The addition of a limited amount of reserved power is just another tool in that equation.

There are fascinating tradeoffs that result from having power. For instance, do you use the motor to increase speed in cruise, or do you keep it in reserve to mitigate the risk of landing out in the end? Do you use it to help increase your acheived climbrate, assisting weak thermals to net an acheived climb of 4 knots for each thermal you take? Do you use it to go straight through the blue hole rather than deviating?

In effect, you could have the option of becoming a Concordia for a while at the flip of a switch.

It's a different game. I love the sport as it is. But I can see how this new game could be appealing too.

All the best,
Daniel

Powered flight is not gliding and powered airplanes, no matter how long and skinny their wings may be, are not gliders.

On Tuesday, December 26, 2017 at 6:41:38 PM UTC-8, wrote:
I find the fuss to be somewhat funny.

It is actually a pretty interesting concept. Call using a motor on course whatever you want, but it makes for an interesting game.

The sport is all about managing energy. The addition of a limited amount of reserved power is just another tool in that equation.

There are fascinating tradeoffs that result from having power. For instance, do you use the motor to increase speed in cruise, or do you keep it in reserve to mitigate the risk of landing out in the end? Do you use it to help increase your acheived climbrate, assisting weak thermals to net an acheived climb of 4 knots for each thermal you take? Do you use it to go straight through the blue hole rather than deviating?

In effect, you could have the option of becoming a Concordia for a while at the flip of a switch.

It's a different game. I love the sport as it is. But I can see how this new game could be appealing too.

All the best,
Daniel

Agreed. A new game with new rules played by pilots in similar aircraft.
But in the bulk of the year when you're not at a contest racing against equals, what is this new game going to feel like?
Jim

Tango Eight wrote on 12/26/2017 6:19 AM:
On Monday, December 25, 2017 at 11:15:18 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Even if the scoring ends with the motor
starting, having a motor can change how the soaring is done.

Behold: honesty. Rare enough to be noteworthy. Thanks, Eric.

I fly a motor glider because it can change how the soaring is done; the result is
I do more soaring, and more interesting soaring, than I would with a towed glider.
I have 2000+ hours in towed gliders, double that in my motorglider, so I'm very
aware of both situations.

As Jon suggests, you could have a very dedicated retrieve crew (and I do - but she
does say the motorglider is the best glider we've ever had) and achieve similar
independence, especially if the crew had a towplane and could tow. It seemed
easier to get a motorglider.

To expand a bit on Jon's point: having a Nimbus 4 instead of a 1-26 will change
how the soaring is done, too, in a big way, bigger than flying a motorized 1-26
(or equivalent). The equipment always affects the choices you make while soaring.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/...anes-2014A.pdf

Tango Eight wrote on 12/26/2017 6:01 PM:
On Tuesday, December 26, 2017 at 7:21:12 PM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
On Tuesday, December 26, 2017 at 6:19:19 AM UTC-8, Tango Eight wrote:
On Monday, December 25, 2017 at 11:15:18 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Even if the scoring ends with the motor
starting, having a motor can change how the soaring is done.

Behold: honesty. Rare enough to be noteworthy. Thanks, Eric.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

Yes - about as much as having a dedicated crew for the retrieve. They should be penalized equally.

On a 1750 km triangle attempt, which would YOU rather have?

30 years ago - an ASH 25 (or whatever the equivalent was then) and the crew;
today, an ASH 30 Mi.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/...anes-2014A.pdf

On Tuesday, December 26, 2017 at 11:55:37 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Tango Eight wrote on 12/26/2017 6:19 AM:
On Monday, December 25, 2017 at 11:15:18 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Even if the scoring ends with the motor
starting, having a motor can change how the soaring is done.

Behold: honesty. Rare enough to be noteworthy. Thanks, Eric.

I fly a motor glider because it can change how the soaring is done

Exactly.

Back to the original point: the motorized guys have a track record in the IGC. Non-motorized guys -- if they care -- should pay attention to that. If Mr Fitch and like minded folk on the IGC can sing 'em all to sleep, well, I'm on my own! At least there's one hard ass left!

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8