Going through ATL

On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 07:01:32 -0500, "Dennis O'Connor"
wrote:

That's wonderful...

Well, frankly, yes it is. Let me see if I can address your questions.

Now, how is the average pilot supposed to know that there is such a thing as
an 'Approach Watch Desk'?

You're not expected to, but as a working CFI and Commercial Pilot, I
spent a lot of time bull****ing with fellow instructors and local
pilots, and when waiting for the boss to do his business, the pilots
at every airport I go to. The list of subjects that spins around with
a group of pilots cooling their heals is almost infinite.

The first time I discovered the ease and beauty of this approach was
doing aerial survey work for the Nashville Airport Authority. I had
the contract to do it, but the Airport Authority only owns the ground
stuff that makes up an airport. They don't own the overlying
airspace. I talked to the supervisor and he briefed the controller
that I would be flying race tracks at 2000 AGL. It turned that when I
got up there, they were in the middle of a push. I thought I had died
and gone to heaven to fly back and forth across that airport and watch
the traffic coming and going. The tower would constantly asked me if
I had specific landing aircraft in sight. "Sir, you bet your sweet
ass I do." There is a neat little book called "The Cellular Pilot"
that Sporty's puts in each order. To me, if you want to have a
usable list of tower supervisors, this book is the way to go.
Beware, however, that the TRACON number may just get you the gal at
the front, which is fine during business hours because you simply tell
her "Hello, Cessna 12345. I need to talk to the active TRACON (or
ARTCC) supervisor."

After hours, you'll get an answering machine. Soo, you dial wx-brief.
Put the number they give you got on your PDA, or reverse write it on
your forehead so that whenever you look in a mirror you see it and
memorize it without even trying.

Or, that FSS is the part of the system which has
the phone numbers for 'supervisors' identified by this internal jargon
within ATC?

It's the "Service" part of FSS. Most pilots don't use a lot of what
FSS can do. DUATS is good for most situations, but FSS can add that
extra enhancement that you need.

Where in the AIM is this information contained?

Sadly, nowhere. There are clues in the AFD.

How many CFI
or CFII folks give their students this specific information?


I was going to be flippant and say, "Why should we give out this
information to the un-washed masses. They'll call the supervisor and
ask him, 'How's the weather over there' , or something similar.

Lord, the more I think about it, that's true. And as a CFII, I do
tell my students how to find those numbers. But they forget it as
fast as I mention it. Not many, but still... there are way too many
idiots that would bring the system to its knees, and the poor ATC guys
to brink of insanity. Really, how many old folks do you hear that
sound like they're not understanding anything and talk in an early
1950s flying movie dialect... "Calling Houston! Calling Houston!
Come in Houston, this is the Secret Rocket Ship to Mars! Calling
Houston, without un keying the Mic Calling Houston, Come in
Houston..."

Rhetorical questions to make a point...
denny


And that's fine. I hope this helps.

Mike Weller

Ya did good, Mike...
denny

"Mike Weller" wrote in Rhetorical questions to
make a point...
denny


And that's fine. I hope this helps.

Mike Weller

The instant I read that Chip, a whole host of PMS / NOW scenarios thundered
through my head... I'm still snickering typical male misogynist pig
reaction:

Anyway, I have been worked by some sharp lady controllers over the years...
Skill doesn't depend upon gender...

denny
"Chip Jones" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"PhyrePhox" wrote in message
...
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There is a guy working the ATL approach control that is just
incredible. I was flying in there one night on United and listening
in on channel 9 as he kept calling out flights and vectors one after
the other never missing a beat. When we turned base I looked out the
window and there must have been close to 100 other planes in the
pattern behind us heading for both runways.

I can remember thinking, how does he keep everybody straight in his
head? It was very cool.

And just think, as good as he was, the best three controllers at Atlanta
Approach are all women. No kidding.

Chip, ZTL

"Chip Jones" wrote in message And just think, as good as he was, the best
three controllers at Atlanta Approach are all women. No kidding.

Why is it that the lady controllers with the sweetest voices turn out to be
butt ugly?

Unfortunately there are bad eggs in every crowd. I was ferrying a Caravan
into PDK from the southeast a few months back. When I asked the controller
for clearance through the class Bravo, he replied that they never give VFR
clearances to anyone. He stated that ATL was the busiest airport in the
country and that I shouldn't even think about it, ever. He came across as
arrogant. I replied that it would have been nice if he had made that known
before I had to blow out my passenger's ears in a rapid descent. He replied,
"Remain clear of the Class B".

That didn't sit well with me. However I am humble, shy, and bashful. So, I
told him I wasn't from the area and had no knowledge of the local
traditions. I was from Miami, which has more operations per runway than ATL
and I routinely fly in there VFR. Then I asked if perhaps that was because
the MIA controllers were better.

D.

wrote:
On a normal day, your chances would be pretty good. However, things get
busy after races. If there is a lot of traffic leaving Griffin or Falcon
field, the controllers may be a bit busy to deal with another VFR flight
through the corridor.

If you have flown to a NASCAR race, you are missing a mini-AirVenture
opportunity.
I went to Taladega four years ago. There is segregation by "heavy-iron"
and everything else. Heavy iron is 20-25% of what is on the field. Heavy
iron gets the paved ramp space, everything else gets the turf.

I arrived a half-hour prior to the start of the race, so traffic was
light. Everyone else had arrive earlier. The field was full with several
hundred aircraft.

After the race, I had to pay my fuel bill. By the time I got back to my
plane, a half-hour had elapsed and the lines from the approach end of
the runway to the back of the pave ramp space was a good mile-and-a-half
long. Had I arrived earlier, gotten my fuel and paid before the race, I
would have cranked, taxied and departed within 15 minutes.
I started the engine and taxied maybe 300 feet to a paved taxiway and
shut down.We then pulled the plane (V35B) the first three-quarter mile
to the parallel taxiway next to the runway and then up the taxiway as
the que progressed.

IFR departures were being sequenced in from the main ramp to the
approach end of the runway, with VFR departures interspersed and
departing from the first taxiway from the approach end.

The race was over at 4:00pm. I started up to position onto the first
taxiway at 4:30pm. I was wheels up, VFR, at 7:00pm.

Twenty-five nm north of Taladega I called ATL Center and picked up VFR
flight following for the remainder of my flight.

It was a fun trip which I will probably do again.
Next time, I will bring my camping gear and spend the night of the field
with others. They do allow camping.

Thanks for the advice.

It worked well. They are very friendly and very happy that I called ahead
of time to get their opinion. They told me to ask to overfly Hartsfield at
5500 on the way down; however , go around under class B until I get north of
Hartsfield on the way back. They will be way too busy to get VFR traffic
identified and cleared to go over ATL before the plane gets into class B.
They don't want anyone circling and/or climbing to get over ATL after the
race. The area will be too conjested.

Kevin

"Capt.Doug" wrote in message
...
"Chip Jones" wrote in message And just think, as good as he was, the
best
three controllers at Atlanta Approach are all women. No kidding.

Why is it that the lady controllers with the sweetest voices turn out to
be
butt ugly?

LOL!


Unfortunately there are bad eggs in every crowd. I was ferrying a Caravan
into PDK from the southeast a few months back. When I asked the controller
for clearance through the class Bravo, he replied that they never give VFR
clearances to anyone. He stated that ATL was the busiest airport in the
country and that I shouldn't even think about it, ever. He came across as
arrogant. I replied that it would have been nice if he had made that known
before I had to blow out my passenger's ears in a rapid descent. He
replied,
"Remain clear of the Class B".

Well whoever he was, he was full of hooey. ATL/A80 routinely issues VFR
clearances through the Class B.


That didn't sit well with me. However I am humble, shy, and bashful. So, I
told him I wasn't from the area and had no knowledge of the local
traditions. I was from Miami, which has more operations per runway than
ATL
and I routinely fly in there VFR. Then I asked if perhaps that was because
the MIA controllers were better.

Well, two things are going on in Atlanta-land. First of all, Columbus GA
and Macon GA Tracons have been consolidated into the Atlanta A80 VLT (Very
Large Tracon). All of the radar controllers from Columbus and Macon got a
big pay raise and then moved to Peachtree City where the new A80 Tracon is.
Subsequently over the last two years, all but three of these folks have been
washed out of the Atlanta Tracon training program and have been shipped out
to lower level facilities. There was a *lot* of rancor and hard feeling for
many of these people, because they were happy at CSG or MCN, were even
happier getting a 40-thousand dollar raise when they were consolidated with
ATL, and are now very unhappy getting shipped off to the boonies as a
training failure. A lot of this rancor came through over the radios and the
land-lines.

Second, Atlanta is a busy place, but it isn't the busiest. I saw somewhere
that Atlanta Tracon was the 5th busiest Tracon in the country and Atlanta
Tower was the 2nd busiest Tower in the country (Behind ORD, I think).
However, there is a HUGE controversy going down right now regarding Tracon
controller pay in Atlanta-land. Controllers get paid based on a scale that
runs from ATC-6 (I think) for the little towers to ATC-14. This pay scale
takes into account both volume and complexity in a formula to classify a
facility's pa, and it sets concrete benchmarks/goalposts for each pay grade,
including ATC-13 ans ATC-14.

The super busy places like Atlanta Approach/Tower, Chicago Approach, New
York Approach, SCT, and other busy towers and Tracons, are currently ATC-12
facilities. So are 8 of the nation's 20 ARTCC's. ATC-12 down here in
Atlanta runs out to around $150,000.00 including all of the differentials,
COLA's and mandatory OT. Currently, no ATC facility is getting paid at
ATC-13 or ATC-14 grades even though the controller pay scale goes that high.

Atlanta Approach used to be located in a radar room at the base of the ATL
tower until a few years ago. Controllers assigned to the ATL facility
worked both the tower cab and also the Tracon radar room. Then the FAA
decided to build a new state-of-the-art Very Large Tracon (aka "Big Assed
Tracon" or "BAT") for the Atlanta area. The plan was to build the
facility, officially designated A80 and then begin consolidation of several
smaller Tracons into the new facility in order to save money.

The controllers union (NATCA) saw the writing on the wall. Thee FAA was
giving the A80 designator to the new facility, while retaining the ATL
designator for the tower cab. Obviously FAA had plans to eventually split
the Tracon from the Tower, just like in Chicago and elsewhere. NATCA
negotiated an MOU with the FAA saying that for an extended period of time
(for "X" many years, I don't know how many), no matter what, the personnel
assigned to Atlanta Tower/Atlanta Approach would be in the same bargaining
unit and would work both at the tower and at the Tracon. FAA signed the
agreement.

Consequently, the complexity-index associated with the combined ATL/A80
facility began to climb, especially when CSG and MCN Tracons were
consolidated into Atlanta Approach. In 2002, the ATL/A80 Tracon crossed the
complexity/volume level to become ATC-13. This was largely because Atlanta
controllers not only worked in the 5th busiest Tracon but also in the 2nd
busiest (and at times the busiest) Tower cab. This gave them a higher
workload index than any other contollers in USA. They began to clamor for
their ATC-13 pay. FAA refused to live up to it's pay agreement, especially
since places like New York and Southern Cal are clearly busier Tracons at
ATC-12. After a year or more of wrangling, a period where even NATCA teams
from Chicago, New York, Southern Cal etc came down to try to invalidate
Atlanta'a claims to ATC-13, FAA finally validated the ATC-13 level for
Atlanta Approach. However, rather than give Atlanta controllers the
agreed-upon regulated pay raise to ATC-13, FAA decided the time had come to
split the Tracon from the Tower to avoid paying ATC-13. FAA subsequently
reneged on their MOU with NATCA concerning the A80/ATL facility (apparently
even going so far as to claim that FAA Administrator Jane Garvey didn't
represent the US Government back when the A80 MOU was signed, hehehe).
Right now, you have a lot of ****ed off controllers in Atlanta who see
themselves as victims of the latest Marion Blakey back-stab. There may soon
be a lot of bad eggs, perhaps a case of the workforce imitating Miss
Manegement.

Chip, ZTL

I have gone to Talladega twice. About 4 years ago with my brother. We sat
in turn 4. Jogged to the plane going with the flow of traffic leaving the
front stretch and made it to the plane in about 30 minutes. Fired it up and
was in the air in 10 minutes. I flew a Mooney which had gas to go non-stop
to Dayton and I was home in my lazyboy by 9:00.

Last October I went with the entire family. Sat at the trioval and went
against the flow of traffic (towards turn 1). No jogging (youngest is 7).
Go to the plane in about an hour. Waited in line to take off for 1.5 hours.
Flew an Archer that is much slower and does not have the gas to make it
non-stop. Stopped in Lexington for fuel and got home at midnight.

It must be the difference in the planes

"john smith" wrote in message
...
wrote:
On a normal day, your chances would be pretty good. However, things get
busy after races. If there is a lot of traffic leaving Griffin or
Falcon
field, the controllers may be a bit busy to deal with another VFR flight
through the corridor.

If you have flown to a NASCAR race, you are missing a mini-AirVenture
opportunity.
I went to Taladega four years ago. There is segregation by "heavy-iron"
and everything else. Heavy iron is 20-25% of what is on the field. Heavy
iron gets the paved ramp space, everything else gets the turf.

I arrived a half-hour prior to the start of the race, so traffic was
light. Everyone else had arrive earlier. The field was full with several
hundred aircraft.

After the race, I had to pay my fuel bill. By the time I got back to my
plane, a half-hour had elapsed and the lines from the approach end of
the runway to the back of the pave ramp space was a good mile-and-a-half
long. Had I arrived earlier, gotten my fuel and paid before the race, I
would have cranked, taxied and departed within 15 minutes.
I started the engine and taxied maybe 300 feet to a paved taxiway and
shut down.We then pulled the plane (V35B) the first three-quarter mile
to the parallel taxiway next to the runway and then up the taxiway as
the que progressed.

IFR departures were being sequenced in from the main ramp to the
approach end of the runway, with VFR departures interspersed and
departing from the first taxiway from the approach end.

The race was over at 4:00pm. I started up to position onto the first
taxiway at 4:30pm. I was wheels up, VFR, at 7:00pm.

Twenty-five nm north of Taladega I called ATL Center and picked up VFR
flight following for the remainder of my flight.

It was a fun trip which I will probably do again.
Next time, I will bring my camping gear and spend the night of the field
with others. They do allow camping.

I will be flying in 4A7.

I will be returning to Dayton Ohio, Dayton-Wright Brother airport (MGY).

"Capt.Doug" wrote:
Why is it that the lady controllers with the sweetest voices
turn out to be butt ugly?

When I visited ZTL a few years ago, all three lady controllers I met
were hotties. Now, every time I talk to a female ZTL controller I get a
warm feeling.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
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