Did the Germans have the Norden bombsight?

On Sat, 1 May 2004 11:42:36 +0200, "Emmanuel Gustin"
wrote:


The problem was that people with a real skill in airborne
gunnery were extremely rare. Most gunners and pilots were
very, very bad at estimating range and lead without some
assistance (underestimating it by half was common), and the
probability they would hit their target was correspondingly
low.

Is this, by any chance, why skeet shooting is so popular at base gun
clubs? Art shoots skeet at Nellis and meets all kinds of fighter
pilots. I shoot a 1903A on the rare not-just-skeet days at the EDW
gun club and see a lot of pilots with shotguns.

Mary

--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer

On Wed, 05 May 2004 05:28:58 -0400, Cub Driver
wrote:

(Must wreak havoc with arrival times in London! I suppose pilots must
get permission to ride a 300 mph jet stream? That could shave two
hours off a flight BOS-LON.)

No permission that I know of, although it shows up in the flight
planning. When the jet stream and the flight track coincide, the
ground speeds really soar. However, the jet stream doesn't follow
great circle routes, so sometimes it's a crosswind instead of a tail
wind going east[1].

We once flew from Hawaii to San Francisco that set a record for the
Honolulu-SFO route. It was about an hour shorter than the usual time,
purely because of the jet stream. It was winter, of course, probably
January.

We'd pre-boarded and got to see the flight attendants reaction to the
captain's announcement of the flight time. They were quite dismayed,
because they weren't going to have time to serve dinner and show the
movie sequentially. As it was, I think the movie ended on final, well
after the landing announcement, and they'd really sprinted through the
drink and dinner service to manage that.

Anyway, the jet stream is why Everest has that plume of ice crystals
downwind all the time; Everest trips the flow, making the moisture
condense. Before aircraft, that was the only direct manifestation,
except for storm tracks, which were more estimated than measured in
most of the world.

It's called the jet stream because it's up where only jets fly, or at
least jet airliners.

[1] Being in SoCal, I go pretty far north to get to London, so the jet
stream doesn't do me as much good as it does easterners.

Mary

--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer

"Mary Shafer" wrote...

(Must wreak havoc with arrival times in London! I suppose pilots must
get permission to ride a 300 mph jet stream? That could shave two
hours off a flight BOS-LON.)

No permission that I know of, although it shows up in the flight
planning. When the jet stream and the flight track coincide, the
ground speeds really soar. However, the jet stream doesn't follow
great circle routes, so sometimes it's a crosswind instead of a tail
wind going east[1].

Seldom is the jet stream 300 mph -- nominal maximum in the winter time is
200 knots or so, though I've seen 220 knots a couple times...

Airline dispatchers routinely adjust routes to take advantage of favorable
jetstream winds, and to avoid horrendous headwinds when possible. Various
ATC agencies do their part as well, adjusting oceanic tracks with the
migration of the jetstreams.

Is this, by any chance, why skeet shooting is so popular at base gun
clubs?

When I was a pilot in the marines, Mary, 50 years ago, we had a skeet
range and a very large allotment of rounds per year. I don't recall
the number, but I never got anywhere near using up my allotment.

I presume the reason for poviding us the facilities and ammunition was
to sharpen our shooting skills. But the reason it was '"popular" was
that guys who like to fly tend to be guys who like to shoot,

vince norris

the jet stream doesn't follow
great circle routes, so sometimes it's a crosswind instead of a tail
wind going east[1].

This might explain why it never seems to affect the flight as much as
300 mph would lead one to believe. As I said, all I can see in a
seven-hour flight is half an hour, though that of course is the
schedule, and perhaps one can't predict sufficiently far in advance
for a schedule. I certainly never recall being on a BOS-LON flight
that got there an hour early, never mind two hours!

We got fairly far north also. Several times I've flown to Italy, which
for me entailed flying first to Dulles (United). The first hour, it
seemed, had me retracing my route up the east coast (which does of
course move ENE, then NE) of the U.S. and Canada.

Must be quite a choice, between the Great Circle and the jet stream.
Or is the route absolutely determined by ATC, not the pilot?

BTW, if it's called jet stream because of jets, what did the 20th AF
call it in 1945?


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
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Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

Mary Shafer wrote:

On Sat, 1 May 2004 11:42:36 +0200, "Emmanuel Gustin"
wrote:


The problem was that people with a real skill in airborne
gunnery were extremely rare. Most gunners and pilots were
very, very bad at estimating range and lead without some
assistance (underestimating it by half was common), and the
probability they would hit their target was correspondingly
low.

Is this, by any chance, why skeet shooting is so popular at base gun
clubs? Art shoots skeet at Nellis and meets all kinds of fighter
pilots. I shoot a 1903A on the rare not-just-skeet days at the EDW
gun club and see a lot of pilots with shotguns.

Mary

Yes...skeet clubs were formed years ago on
almost all military airbases...they're free
access (afik) and are quite popular, that was
the reason given to me for their existence,
and although they're likely not as useful for
their original purpose as they once were,
their popularity has given them a reason for
being. Lot's of fun.
--

-Gord.

"Emmanuel Gustin" wrote in message ...
"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...

As I said, all I can see in a
seven-hour flight is half an hour, though that of course is the
schedule, and perhaps one can't predict sufficiently far in advance
for a schedule. I certainly never recall being on a BOS-LON flight
that got there an hour early, never mind two hours!

That may depend on the airline. My experience on cross-Atlantic
flights is that the scheduled time difference is 45 minutes, and
that the flight "downwind" is the one more liekly to arrive on time,
even if there are delays at departure.

BTW, if it's called jet stream because of jets, what did the 20th AF
call it in 1945?

The Germans named it "Strahlstroemung" in 1939, well before
jet aircraft were around. Jet stream is the straightforward
translation.

My favourite word is "Duesenstrahljaeger".

[French, from Old French, from jeter, to spout forth, throw, from
Vulgar Latin *iectre, alteration of Latin iactre, frequentative of
iacere, to throw. See y- in Indo-European Roots.]