ADS-B why

I have a PowerFlarm and transponder. Ninety percent of my flying is from the Southern Cal operating areas up through the Sierras and typical operating area out of Minden. So while I do pass through a few more trafficked areas, (Cajon& Banning Pass, Tahoe, Reno...etc) the majority of my flight time is with other gliders. I perfectly see transponder equipped and Flarm equipped gliders, why would I want to add the capability of ADS-B out?

If I was regularly operating in LA class B airspace I can see why I would want all the help and broadcast, but for gliders not typically operating in high traffic airspace why the extra cost, space and battery drain?

Looking ahead to the current planned 2020 mandate, and assuming that the FAA does change its mind on glider exemptions, people want to know what it will cost and require to equip for continued flight. I think people are looking ahead (not to be confused with looking forward to) to get equipment that can be used to meet their future needs.

Just my observation on this.

Steve Leonard

On Friday, January 6, 2017 at 12:20:26 PM UTC-8, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
I have a PowerFlarm and transponder. Ninety percent of my flying is from the Southern Cal operating areas up through the Sierras and typical operating area out of Minden. So while I do pass through a few more trafficked areas, (Cajon& Banning Pass, Tahoe, Reno...etc) the majority of my flight time is with other gliders. I perfectly see transponder equipped and Flarm equipped gliders, why would I want to add the capability of ADS-B out?

If I was regularly operating in LA class B airspace I can see why I would want all the help and broadcast, but for gliders not typically operating in high traffic airspace why the extra cost, space and battery drain?

You have what exact transponder in a experimental or certified glider?

As we've covered in two threads here recently, If you already have a Trig Transponder in an experimental glider then adding a Trig TN72 GPS is a relatively low cost way of getting 1090ES Out. That will make you visible to GA aircraft with ADS-B In (but you are already visible to them via TIS-B if you have a transponder, but you'll get a bit better ADS-B coverage and accuracy with ADS-B Out), make you visible over longer range to other PowerFLARM equipped gliders--potentially interesting to folks buddy flying. The fast/heavy jets with TCAS and ATC with SSR see you already via the transponder. ADS-B Out provides some improved tracking compared to SSR so in the case of an accident or landout may provide better position data to SAR organizations, but not great in the mountainous areas... and not a replacement for an InReach or Spot tracker.

ADS-B Out (including with a TN72 GPS on a Trig transponder) will trigger ground services to provide ADS-R and TIS-B service for your glider... which with PowerFLARM (which does 1090ES In only and is not compatible with ADS-R or TIS-B) that does you no good at all--but if you did want to play with a different ADS-B In receiver that might be intersting--but in reality is likely of no interesest to most glider pilots.

Darryl,

If the glider is experimental...

Could you supply the ADSB Out capable transponder with NMEA GPS data from a GPS source such as a CNv or Powerflarm, etc.? I agree that the TN72 is affordable, but if experimental, is it necessary?


Separately, someone posted a comment which came from Trig which says the lower power Trig is acceptable for experimental gliders. Do you agree with that comment?

On Friday, January 6, 2017 at 5:28:59 PM UTC-8, wrote:
Darryl,

If the glider is experimental...

Could you supply the ADSB Out capable transponder with NMEA GPS data from a GPS source such as a CNv or Powerflarm, etc.? I agree that the TN72 is affordable, but if experimental, is it necessary?


Separately, someone posted a comment which came from Trig which says the lower power Trig is acceptable for experimental gliders. Do you agree with that comment?

The TN72 gets you more than any random consumer/NMEA GPS source will. Like display of your aircraft on the ADS-B In traffic displays in certified aircraft. So yes as a part of the whole ADS-B thing being a overly complex mess, you want to be as compliant as possible and this TABS stuff is better than random consumer stuff.

The Trig TT-21 (what I assume you mean by lower-power here) is fine for this "TABS" use in experimental aircraft. You can't use a TT-21 to meet any 2020 ADS-B Out compliance needs, but you are not doing that here, you are just using it to transmit (lower-power) 1090ES Out. That it happens to be TSO-C199/TABS complaint is irrelevant now in a regulations sense since there are no install or use regulations that affects.... and that's the issue with certified gliders today is there are is no TABS install regulations and (if needed) STCs that let you do that install. I hope the FAA addresses.

If you have a Trig transponder in an experimental glider I'd reach out to Trig and do exactly what they said to with the TN72. They know what they are doing, worked with the FAA on the development of TSO-C199 etc.

Darryl -

If you have a Trig 22 transponder and a PowerFlarm installed in an experimental glider, would you still recommend installation of the TN72?

Thanks!

Lou

Sorry very poorly worded original question. Trig transponder, experimental glider and assume gliders will be exempt from ADS-B out.

On Friday, January 6, 2017 at 3:47:09 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2017 at 12:20:26 PM UTC-8, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
I have a PowerFlarm and transponder. Ninety percent of my flying is from the Southern Cal operating areas up through the Sierras and typical operating area out of Minden. So while I do pass through a few more trafficked areas, (Cajon& Banning Pass, Tahoe, Reno...etc) the majority of my flight time is with other gliders. I perfectly see transponder equipped and Flarm equipped gliders, why would I want to add the capability of ADS-B out?

If I was regularly operating in LA class B airspace I can see why I would want all the help and broadcast, but for gliders not typically operating in high traffic airspace why the extra cost, space and battery drain?

You have what exact transponder in a experimental or certified glider?

As we've covered in two threads here recently, If you already have a Trig Transponder in an experimental glider then adding a Trig TN72 GPS is a relatively low cost way of getting 1090ES Out. That will make you visible to GA aircraft with ADS-B In (but you are already visible to them via TIS-B if you have a transponder, but you'll get a bit better ADS-B coverage and accuracy with ADS-B Out), make you visible over longer range to other PowerFLARM equipped gliders--potentially interesting to folks buddy flying. The fast/heavy jets with TCAS and ATC with SSR see you already via the transponder. ADS-B Out provides some improved tracking compared to SSR so in the case of an accident or landout may provide better position data to SAR organizations, but not great in the mountainous areas... and not a replacement for an InReach or Spot tracker.

ADS-B Out (including with a TN72 GPS on a Trig transponder) will trigger ground services to provide ADS-R and TIS-B service for your glider... which with PowerFLARM (which does 1090ES In only and is not compatible with ADS-R or TIS-B) that does you no good at all--but if you did want to play with a different ADS-B In receiver that might be intersting--but in reality is likely of no interesest to most glider pilots.

On 1/6/17 6:10 PM, MNLou wrote:
Darryl -

If you have a Trig 22 transponder and a PowerFlarm installed in an experimental glider, would you still recommend installation of the TN72?

Thanks!

Lou


Sure, if you wanted those benefits I mentioned.

If you want/need any actual 2020 Compliance things (like IFR flight into
Class A then that may not be enough)... and with a TT-22 you at least
have the option to do a full 2020 compliant ADS-B Out install.

Again talk to Trig, if the TN72 (in addition to actually being
TSO-C199/TABS) is also a "meets performance requirements of TSO-C145c"
GPS source then you can also use it to do a complaint install in an
experimental aircraft with a TT-22 (but not a TT-21) that does meet the
2020 ADS-B Out requirements.

I have an email into Trig to check on the "meets performance
requirements" question.

If someone has a Trig or other Mode S transponder which does NOT have an ADSB source connected to it, but the owner HAS entered the correct FAA issued ID, does the Trig broadcast that ID so that other PowerFlarm equipped gliders can exclude (in theory) the Mode C, PCAS alert from the PowerFlarm?

Yes.

I have a TT-22 and PowerFLARM portable and it works as you asked. I've
identified another glider by his contest call sign whereas he's only
been able to see my ICAO address since he's not yet downloaded the
latest flarmnet database.

On 1/7/2017 7:37 AM, wrote:
If someone has a Trig or other Mode S transponder which does NOT have an ADSB source connected to it, but the owner HAS entered the correct FAA issued ID, does the Trig broadcast that ID so that other PowerFlarm equipped gliders can exclude (in theory) the Mode C, PCAS alert from the PowerFlarm?

--
Dan, 5J