Compass turns revisited

John Clonts wrote:
Have you ever flown a plane with OBS's that were designed where you
couldn't see most of the numbers around the
perimeter of it?

Yes, that's one kind I referred to. In fact, I once had to train a
student whose airplane was so equipped. I believe his CDI's were
Garmin and some model of Narco, but I could be wrong.

There are also others (Terra, Bendix 2000) that are digital - you dial
in the radial on a display rather than have a mechanical ring.

Michael

cfe, Just give it a rest! The examiner may, in my experience, do just about
anything, under the guise of distraction or instrument failure. So while you
may be technically right, in the real world I don't think yoiur arguement
has any validity.

- Barney

PPL, SEL, IR, working on CPL

Which task did he fail, and what is the wording on the pink slip? ?

Failure to maintain situational awareness. I don't know if "maintaining
situational awareness" is a "task" for the PTS, but it is certainly
necessary.

Do you disagree?

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

If it's not a task or part of a task, then he can't be failed for it.
An applicant has to fail a TASK, in order to fail the test.
So what task did he fail?

I don't know. But let me ask you this - suppose you were the examiner,
and the ILS receiver =actually= failed during the approach, and the
applicant did not catch it, but continued to fly the needles (which are
now centered and flagged), and just by luck arrives at the MDA right in
front of the runway... would you fail the applicant for this? What
"task" would you fail him on?

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

In article ,
Jose wrote:

If it's not a task or part of a task, then he can't be failed for it.
An applicant has to fail a TASK, in order to fail the test.
So what task did he fail?

I don't know. But let me ask you this - suppose you were the examiner,
and the ILS receiver =actually= failed during the approach, and the
applicant did not catch it, but continued to fly the needles (which are
now centered and flagged), and just by luck arrives at the MDA right in
front of the runway... would you fail the applicant for this? What
"task" would you fail him on?

How about:

V. AREA OF OPERATION: NAVIGATION SYSTEMS
A. TASK: INTERCEPTING AND TRACKING NAVIGATIONAL SYSTEMS AND DME ARCS
9. Recognizes navigational receiver or facility failure, and when required,
reports the failure to ATC.

or, if you prefer:

VI.AREA OF OPERATION: INSTRUMENT APPROACH PROCEDURES
B. TASK: PRECISION APPROACH (PA)
9. Selects, tunes, identifies, and monitors the operational status of
ground and airplane navigation equipment used for the approach.

I would fail him under the following (as any examiner properly should)

V. AREA OF OPERATION: NAVIGATION SYSTEMS

A. TASK: INTERCEPTING AND TRACKING NAVIGATIONAL
SYSTEMS AND DME ARCS

9. Recognizes navigational receiver or facility failure, and
when required, reports the failure to ATC

Ok, so in my earlier example, the examiner simulates a failure by
changing the frequency. This is not discovered by the applicant, and
although the approach is completed successfully, the examiner fails the
applicant on task V.A.9 just like your example.

The applicant appeals, claiming that the examiner did not have the right
to "dictate what frequency the radio would be set to".

How does this materially differ from simulating GPS failure (could be
signal failure, antenna failure, etc) by insisting that the GPS be
turned to a non-useful page?

My suggestion to you is that you get together with an instructor and
review practical tests before you go for whatever your next rating
might be, so you know what to expect.

Good advice for anyone looking towards a rating, and it should be
covered by the instruction towards that rating. I am not working
towards a rating, so this applies to me only as a snipe.

By the way, an ILS approach ends at DA, not MDA.

Isn't it "DH" now? Or is that the old password? Sorry, I didn't eat my
alphabet soup before I posted.

Jose
Take off power!
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

In article ,
Jose wrote:

By the way, an ILS approach ends at DA, not MDA.

Isn't it "DH" now?

A precision approach has both a DA and a DH. DA is the Decision Altitude
(i.e. MSL), and DH is Decision Height (i.e. above the ground, although I'll
admit that I can't remember if it's above the threshold or above the
touchdown zone, or maybe something else).

For some reason, people tend to say things like "The DH is 680", when they
really mean "The DA is 680, and the DH is 200". It's sloppy, and wrong,
but somehow people tend to be able to figure out what they're talking about.

On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 01:20:34 GMT, Jose
wrote:

Ok, so in my earlier example, the examiner simulates a failure by
changing the frequency. This is not discovered by the applicant, and
although the approach is completed successfully, the examiner fails the
applicant on task V.A.9 just like your example.

The applicant appeals, claiming that the examiner did not have the right
to "dictate what frequency the radio would be set to".

How does this materially differ from simulating GPS failure (could be
signal failure, antenna failure, etc) by insisting that the GPS be
turned to a non-useful page?


If the applicant failed to discover that the GPS wasn't working, I'd
say you have a case. For example, he fails to see that the GPS does
not go into "ACTV" mode (or the equivalent) 2 miles before the FAF,
and continues the approach, he fails V.A.9

If he discovers the anomoly, on the other hand, the applicant would
be expected to take remedial action as soon as it was discovered,
i.e., change the frequency back to the proper one, fly a missed
approach if appropriate, reload the GPS approach, etc., and he
would have satisfied the requirements of the task. He would pass.

In your scenario, likewise, once he discovered the anomoly, he would
set the GPS back to the proper page. If he discovers it right away,
the requirements of V.A.9 are then satisfied. He passes.

But what you are missing, I thnk, is that there is no provision for
testing the applicant's ability to perform procedures with less than
all equipment on board, except for failing the "primary instruments".
i.e., AI and DG, or the equivalent on a glass panel, and simulating
loss of communication equipment. There is no task set up to fly
procedures with failed navigational equipment.

For example, it is possible to fly an intersection hold with one VOR.
and no DME. If an applicant were failed on the holding task because an
examiner insisted he turn off the second VOR and DME, and do an
intersection hold, I would say the examiner has overstepped his
bounds, regardless of how much he or you or I feel this is something
"every instrument pilot should be able to do." The PTS doesn't
require it.

Likewise with all other navigational equipment, GPS included.

On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 22:18:28 -0400, Roy Smith wrote:

In article ,
Jose wrote:

By the way, an ILS approach ends at DA, not MDA.

Isn't it "DH" now?

A precision approach has both a DA and a DH. DA is the Decision Altitude
(i.e. MSL), and DH is Decision Height (i.e. above the ground, although I'll
admit that I can't remember if it's above the threshold or above the
touchdown zone, or maybe something else).

For some reason, people tend to say things like "The DH is 680", when they
really mean "The DA is 680, and the DH is 200". It's sloppy, and wrong,
but somehow people tend to be able to figure out what they're talking about.


It's above TDZE, but DA used to be callled DH. There was no "DA" on
approach charts until a few years back. The use of DH is not so much
sloppiness as long term memory in a lot of cases.

It's above TDZE, but DA used to be called DH. There was no "DA" on
approach charts until a few years back. The use of DH is not so much
sloppiness as long term memory in a lot of cases.

It's not as clear as it should be:

- The AIM says that DA replaces DH for RNAV procedures with vertical guidance.

- The FAA's Instrument Procedures Handbook says "DA is currently used on RNAV
approach charts with vertical descent guidance. DA will replace DH for
Category I precision IAPs. MDA and DA are referenced to MSL and measured with
a barometric altimeter. CAT II and III approach DHs are referenced to AGL and
measured with a radio altimeter."

- The Terminal Procedures legend (front of the NACO approach chart books) and
FAR Part 91 still use only DH as far as I can see.