Should you tell Tower you're departing IFR

"Andrew Gideon" wrote in message
online.com...

I'm not likely to forget I'm IFR, even of the tower operator does (or
hasn't
been informed, perhaps). I'm also not likely to take off IFR w/o a
squawk.

What tower is apparently avoiding is an operation error, yes. They're
doing
so by using my reluctance to depart IFR w/o a squawk. By forcing me to
ask
for a squawk if it's not given, they're effectively having me remind the
tower operator that I'm IFR in the case where he or she has forgotten.

At least, that's my understanding of how this "gimmick" is working. It
doesn't make sense?


Only if all IFR pilots refuse to launch without a discrete beacon code. Not
all will do that.

Where I fly, it's standard practice to remind the tower controller on
your "ready" call that you're IFR. It's standard because after I finish
the correct readback of my IFR clearance from the ground controller, he
always responds with "readback correct, advise the tower you're IFR".

It's been this way for years at this class D airport (KPAO).

On 25 Sep 2005 00:44:20 -0700, "max" wrote:

Where I fly, it's standard practice to remind the tower controller on
your "ready" call that you're IFR. It's standard because after I finish
the correct readback of my IFR clearance from the ground controller, he
always responds with "readback correct, advise the tower you're IFR".

It's been this way for years at this class D airport (KPAO).

That's different, in my opinion, because you are responding to a specific
instruction from ATC. If I were to receive that instruction from ground
(or clearance delivery), I would certainly follow it, too.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"Newps" wrote in message
...


Peter wrote:



In the USA, can one depart VFR and then change to IFR and back again?
Here in the UK this is done all the time. But one isn't supposed to do
it in e.g. France because *any* IFR requires an IFR flight plan, and
an IFR clearance.

The last bit should be OK because one can cancel IFR, AFAIK.

Europe's system is not flexible, we are.

Like the US you can file a pop up IFR flight plan if needed, for example if
the weather goes a bit pearshaped and you want to fly in controlled
airspace.

The UK has class A going down to the surface and a special VFR clearance is
available in that airspace. Other class A not at the surface is IFR only
like everywhere else.

Interestingly from FL245 our airspace goes to Class B

Newps wrote:

I'm also not likely to take off IFR w/o a
squawk.

Nobody's worried about you forgetting you're IFR, all this is about a
VFR tower launching an IFR aircraft into the system and the pilot is the
only one who knows he's IFR. That's bad.

Right. And in another part of my note, I wrote that the tower is attempting
to avoid this by exploiting the low probability of the pilot either
forgetting he/she is IFR or departing w/o a squawk.

- Andrew

"Peter" wrote in message
...

What I meant was can
one say depart VFR (no flight plan) and upon seeing cloud ahead call
up and ask for an IFR clearance. One needs to have an IR of course.
How easy is this sort of thing to do in reality?


Yes, one can get a pop-up IFR clearance. How easy it is depends on how busy
the controller is.



Here in the UK, we can do it (in Class G) without any radio contact,
which I believe is unique in Europe.


That can be done in the US where there's enough Class G airspace.

On 9/25/2005 22:12, Peter wrote:

Mark Hansen wrote

In the USA, can one depart VFR and then change to IFR and back again?

Sure. You file a combined VFR/IFR flight plan. When they see the initial
fix of your IFR route beginning away from the departure area, they know
you're departing VFR (and that you intend to pick-up your IFR clearance
before you reach the initial fix).

OK, sorry, I forgot about the Y/Z flight plans. What I meant was can
one say depart VFR (no flight plan) and upon seeing cloud ahead call
up and ask for an IFR clearance. One needs to have an IR of course.
How easy is this sort of thing to do in reality?

As Steven said, they're called Pop-up IFR clearances.


Here in the UK, we can do it (in Class G) without any radio contact,
which I believe is unique in Europe.

In the U.S., you are only required to have an IFR clearance and flight
plan when operating within controlled airspace. So, you can convert
your flight from VFR to IFR while in class G airspace without any
ATC intervention.

However, given that your flight is not being monitored by ATC, there
is no one to provide separation between you and other planes who may
have pilots doing the same thing. You would have to decide whether
you're willing to take that kind of a risk.

Incidentally, without the FARs in front of me at the moment, I know
there is one FAR that is similar to the 'Basic Rule' of automotive
regulations: If you do anything stupid or with undue risk, you can
get hammered.


Believe it or not I have passed my FAA IR written but the texts don't
seem to address practical points like this.

Yes, understanding the FARs is only the first step. Applying them
appropriately is where the wisdom comes in ;-)


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA

Matt Whiting wrote:
Dave Butler wrote:

This is an interesting thread. I'm based at a class C, RDU,
Raleigh-Durham, NC, and I've never had that happen, and I've never
informed tower that I was IFR. Never heard anyone else do it either.


Same here. Hard to believe that the tower wouldn't have some indication
of the flight plan type, but sounds like maybe not.

Must be one of those regional things. It seems some people always do it and
can't imagine how it would work if they didn't, and others (me) have never heard
of it.

On 9/26/2005 12:18, Dave Butler wrote:

Matt Whiting wrote:
Dave Butler wrote:

This is an interesting thread. I'm based at a class C, RDU,
Raleigh-Durham, NC, and I've never had that happen, and I've never
informed tower that I was IFR. Never heard anyone else do it either.


Same here. Hard to believe that the tower wouldn't have some indication
of the flight plan type, but sounds like maybe not.

Must be one of those regional things. It seems some people always do it and
can't imagine how it would work if they didn't, and others (me) have never heard
of it.

Unfortunately, at least in my case, the instructor didn't present it
as a regional thing, so I received my rating with the belief that it's
a rule of IFR flight.

Of course, now that I understand there are issues like this, I can
look out for them, and not be too surprised when I'm hit with one ;-)

I never believed that getting my rating at one airport would prepare
me for flight at any airport. But it would be nice to have been told
these are local policies and not "rules" (note: I'm not referring to
FARs here...).


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA

"Dave Butler" wrote in message
news:1127762088.858279@sj-nntpcache-5...
Matt Whiting wrote:
Dave Butler wrote:

This is an interesting thread. I'm based at a class C, RDU,
Raleigh-Durham, NC, and I've never had that happen, and I've never
informed tower that I was IFR. Never heard anyone else do it either.


Same here. Hard to believe that the tower wouldn't have some indication
of the flight plan type, but sounds like maybe not.

Must be one of those regional things. It seems some people always do it
and can't imagine how it would work if they didn't, and others (me) have
never heard of it.

Not regional, more like local.

The tower does have an indication of flight plan type. If it's IFR there is
a strip with the clearance and somebody (probably Ground) issued it to the
aircraft.

But if 99.9% of the traffic a local controller handles is VFR spamcans then
99.9% of the time when a spamcan calls for takeoff the response is going to
be "Cleared for takeoff." Usually without even looking for a strip since
many towers don't make strips for VFR.

Make it busy so the controller is looking out the windows trying to figure
out where he's going to put the airplanes instead of looking at or for a
strip (which isn't there 99.9% of the time anyway), throw in a departure
control who won't release aircraft in advance so the release can't be
obtained before the aircraft calls tower, then absent some sort of reminder,
the odds of launching that 0.01% IFR aircraft without a release go way up.

The reminder might be not issuing a squawk until released, asking local
aircraft to include "IFR" in their request for takeoff, the CD/FD or ground
controller bouncing the strip off the local controller's head, or something
else. But after one or two IFRs slip the surly bonds without a release,
some sort of procedural reminder will be put in place.

Some folks may think relying on an individual controller's memory and
situational awareness should be enough but it's not, never has been, never
will be :-/