Tomcats gone by fall of 2006

Doug- Not to mention the fact that there wasn't enough money for AMRAAM
on
the
F-14. That hurt too. BRBR

Concur. Even the USAF F-16 weenies got AMRAAM, along with AIM-7-
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye
Phlyer

And the cost for the software val/ver (it was already developed) was a
pittance. Personally, I find the decision to not configure the F-14 for
AMRAAM (could have been done in the late 80's) an example of unpunished
criminal behavior. Based on recent headlines, unpunished criminal behavior
is a fairly common occurrence within the halls of the pentagon.

R / John

"Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" wrote...

You know me, John. Kool-Aid drinker. I'm telling you though. 2v1 or
1v1,
that high alpha's a big positive deal--against F-14's, F-15's, and F-16's.

....but only if you let them get close!

(Pechs1) wrote in message ...


It's gonna need something to replace the 'Bug', which is now an old design.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

thats what the "Superbug" is there for aswell

On 6/17/04 9:07 PM, in article , "John
Carrier" wrote:

You know me, John. Kool-Aid drinker. I'm telling you though. 2v1 or
1v1,
that high alpha's a big positive deal--against F-14's, F-15's, and F-16's.

Admittedly, that low top speeds a big negative deal too. Gotta stay and
fight. Can't run.

Yep, and in the real world it's the guy that's not part of your personal 1v1
that gets his silver star equivalent while you were dazzling his buddy.
Great fun, great way to be a target, great way to activate your SGLI.

R / John



We've been down this road before.

It is not uncommon for me to engage a flight of two as a singleton bandit
and shoot both fighters because of that high alpha capability. If it works
against Tomcats/Vipers in training, then I doubt it will be different in the
"real world."

--Woody

On 6/18/04 11:53 AM, in article i6FAc.134315$Ly.127603@attbi_s01, "John R
Weiss" wrote:

"Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" wrote...

You know me, John. Kool-Aid drinker. I'm telling you though. 2v1 or
1v1,
that high alpha's a big positive deal--against F-14's, F-15's, and F-16's.

...but only if you let them get close!



Certainly it's better to shoot them in the lips from miles away.

--Woody

unpunished criminal behavior
is a fairly common occurrence within the halls of the pentagon.

Throughout government, sad to say. The private sector, too.

vince norris

Mike Weeks wrote:

This might be of some interest. Throw out all those other transition schedules
we've seen. g

start
DEFENSE DAILY 16 JUN 04

Tomcat Transition To Super Hornet Complete By Fall '06, Admiral Says

By Lorenzo Cortes

The Navy will successfully retire the remainder of its Northrop Grumman [NOC]
F-14 Tomcat fleet in fall 2006 thanks to an accelerated schedule that also
includes introducing Boeing [BA] F/A-18E/F Super Hornet fighter-bombers
earlier, according to the Atlantic Fleet's air forces chief.

"One of the things that we have been able to do as a result of some good
production with our industry partners with the success of the multiyear with
the E and F is we were able to look at and make a decision to accelerate the
transition of the last of the F-14 squadrons to the F/A-18E/F," Rear Adm. Jim
Zortman, commander of Naval Air Forces Atlantic, said last week during the
Association of Naval Aviation's 2004 convention in Vienna, Va. "That is taking
place right now,
and by fall of '06, we will have made that transition. ...
end

MW
Does that mean we will see QF-14 drones soon?

Bob



-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

We've been down this road before.

It is not uncommon for me to engage a flight of two as a singleton bandit
and shoot both fighters because of that high alpha capability. If it
works
against Tomcats/Vipers in training, then I doubt it will be different in
the
"real world."

Been there and done that as well, albeit in an A-4. It's the sticky little
problem of the wild card that gets thrown into that otherwise controllable
mix. Particularly sticky, even after a 2 kill result, because you must
leave the hostile arena (perhaps 50-100 NM from feet wet) starting with 150
knots and a wee bit less fuel than you'd probably like.

Perhaps we've entered an era in which air supremacy is a given. In every
encounter we've experienced since Vietnam, we've so thoroughly owned the
arena that we could do our thing with impunity with regard to the airborne
threat (of course ground fire, etc can still rear its ugly head ...
particularly if you get low). In sanitized airspace, your 1v2 may well be
guaranteed to remain a 1v2 and your egress can be a fuel efficient profile.

Or not. Current training often reflects the preferred methods of
engagement: AMRAAM at F-pole, break to notch the bogey's system, and then
leave without a merge. That's good. But it's sometimes (often?) BFM
oriented: call all the forward quarter shots, then continue to the merge
and "fight's on!" Maybe not so good. How many of your kick ass, take names
engagements ended with a 3rd bogey entering the arena at an inopportune
time? How many had a bugout that lasted more than 30 seconds?

I'm not arguing against the relative merits of your aircraft or your
consummate skill. But I am suggesting that more often than not, our
"training" leaves out some of the important stuff. IIRC the last guys to
enjoy similar success (3 kills in one engagement) had to ride the helo back
to the ship, and were damn lucky to do so.

R / John

Certainly it's better to shoot them in the lips from miles away. BRBR


BUT if you find yourself in amongst them, you better have the skill to survive
and win. Many after getting into the F-4 thought closein fighting was dead and
they became dead. In a multi bogey envirnment, with so many A/C looking
similar, with a VID requirement, you are going to go to the merge.

Sure you don't pull your pants down and grovel, but you had better have the
skills to visually fight your enemy.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

Been there and done that as well, albeit in an A-4. It's the sticky
little
problem of the wild card that gets thrown into that otherwise controllable
mix. Particularly sticky, even after a 2 kill result, because you must
leave the hostile arena (perhaps 50-100 NM from feet wet) starting with
150
knots and a wee bit less fuel than you'd probably like.

Some comments from an airchair amateur here (had a similiar discussion
with Ed and a few others in r.a.m. last year or so). I'm with Doug 100% for
the following reasons: modern missiles, modern agility, modern thrust,
modern awacs. Modern missiles make dogfighting much more dangerous, and
reduce the importance of maintaining speed. Sure, keeping up your E for a
break is good, but unlike a gun solution or early a-a missiles, you might
not be able to spoil a good R-73 or -9X shot by pulling anything less than
13g's. Modern agility (and modern missiles) means that the bad guy has far
more opportunities to fire those missiles (doesn't have to maneuver to a
strong tail position). Modern thrust lets you get that energy back in a
hurry, and modern awacs keeps you apprised of the situation. I suppose you
could also add that modern speed and missiles make it very difficult to
disengage (without getting a BVR missile up the tail).
Even assuming there's no awacs (something very rare for a U.S.
engagement), I would still imagine the best thing to maneuver as
aggressively as realistically possible (i.e., worrying about angles more
than energy), get a super-agile missile off at the bad guy pronto, put him
on the defense (I'm going to assume that anyone with a missile launched at
them is going to attend to it rather than returning the favor), then take
advantage of his missile evasion to get better position (assuming he manages
to dodge the missile). Repeat (you've got 4 IR and 4 BVR shots in most
fighters). Deal with the possibility of an unknown by ending the fight
ASAP. Also, deal with low fuel by ending the fight quickly, rather than a
longer, higher-speed engagement. By going full offensive ASAP (= high alpha
vs. high speed), you trade a lower ability to quit or dodge a missile (less
e) for a lower chance of him shooting at you (put him on the defense), and a
higher chance of you hitting him and ending the engagement. Given that the
odds of being able to quit the fight or dodge a missile are low any how, and
that you can regain e like never before, I would think that the advantages
of cashing in that speed, currently or will soon (unlike in the past),
outweigh the disadvantages.
It boils down to the best defense being an extremely aggressive offense.
Of course, stealthily smacking him in the teeth BVR from outside his range
is really the best way to go! And that's my two cents (again, with the
caveat of being an armchair pilot who has no firm data on the performance of
new-gen missiles).

Tony