Flying through Canadian airspace

"Denny" wrote in message
ups.com...
BTW, I was on the phone to FSS yesterday about todays weather... Dunno
if it has changed into private hands or if the federal employees there
can feel change breathing down their necks, but I gotta tell ya the
briefer was so accomodating and over friendly I wondered if they
thought I was somebody in a position of power...

denny

Didn't the "Welcome to the Lockheed Martin ........ phone greeting tip you
off? It went private months ago.

Allen

Didn't the "Welcome to the Lockheed Martin ........ phone greeting tip
you
off? It went private months ago.
************************************************** *************************************

Ahhh haaa, I thought something was different, like the government was
getting a sense of humor or something... I live in my own little world
and externals don't intrude much... Actually, the instant that Lansing
center picks up with a click I automatically hit #1, and don't hear the
greeting... The other thing is that the past few years I have been on
a kick of avoiding Big Brother as much as possible... Only filing IFR
when forced to... Otherwise, just getting my own weather and going off
on my own without talking to ATC.. This trip I will save a half hour
of fuel each way and get the scenic ride across the Lake by filing a
flight plan instead of going West of Detroit to avoid Canada., so it's
worth the effort of asking big brother for permission...

Anyway, just filed for the trip VFR... Briefer seemed happy,
presumeably the radar operator at center will be happy because there
will be a squawk next to my blip, so HSA will happy, the military will
be happy, and presumeably the NSA is happy with my phone calling
patterns... A win-win all around...

denny

"Denny" wrote in message
ups.com...
Didn't the "Welcome to the Lockheed Martin ........ phone greeting tip
you
off? It went private months ago.
************************************************** *************************************

Ahhh haaa, I thought something was different, like the government was
getting a sense of humor or something... I live in my own little world
and externals don't intrude much... Actually, the instant that Lansing
center picks up with a click I automatically hit #1, and don't hear the
greeting... The other thing is that the past few years I have been on
a kick of avoiding Big Brother as much as possible... Only filing IFR
when forced to... Otherwise, just getting my own weather and going off
on my own without talking to ATC.. This trip I will save a half hour
of fuel each way and get the scenic ride across the Lake by filing a
flight plan instead of going West of Detroit to avoid Canada., so it's
worth the effort of asking big brother for permission...

Anyway, just filed for the trip VFR... Briefer seemed happy,
presumeably the radar operator at center will be happy because there
will be a squawk next to my blip, so HSA will happy, the military will
be happy, and presumeably the NSA is happy with my phone calling
patterns... A win-win all around...

denny

I am with you. I live in an area where there are frequent TFR's. I use
DUATs for the initial check and then call FSS if I need to file. (I still
don't trust filing with DUATs, had too many flight plans lost.)

Allen

Allen wrote:
...call FSS if I need to file. (I still
don't trust filing with DUATs, had too many flight plans lost.)

My experience is _exactly_ the opposite.

"Dave Butler" wrote in message
news:1148484464.58605@sj-nntpcache-5...
Allen wrote:
...call FSS if I need to file. (I still don't trust filing with DUATs,
had too many flight plans lost.)

My experience is _exactly_ the opposite.

You've had too many flight plans not lost?

"Dave Butler" wrote in message
news:1148484464.58605@sj-nntpcache-5...
Allen wrote:
...call FSS if I need to file. (I still don't trust filing with DUATs,
had too many flight plans lost.)

My experience is _exactly_ the opposite.

My distrust comes from using the system early on. It appears I need to try
it again. Thanks for the reply!

Allen

Wow, and double WoW! Never before, have I heard of an airliner taking the
time to do some sightseeing!


Years ago, I was coming back to Minnesota from the L.A. area in
California, flying on Northwest. The pilot came on the PA and said that
since it was such a clear morning, they got permission to divert
slightly so we could see the Grand Canyon. We didn't do any 360's, but
they did slow down and bank right and left so everyone could get a
look. This was also the same flight that the pilot would keep us up to
date with the Vikings (football) score....
Don't know if that would occur now days or not....

Randy

Well, we did the flight from Saginaw to Cleveland and back... As
promised I did file VFR and I will never, never, never, pinch me, n e
v e r, do that again... What a ghastly experience... And this is
from a fella who has been flying the ATC system for over 40 years - but
hasn't filed a VFR flight plan within that time frame (that I can
remember)..
Anyway, Out on the ramp I phoned and got the Lansing FSS... Rattled off
the usual flight plan info... Waited for the usual CRAFT response and
then gotcha #1 rose up... (I should have known right then!) She didn't
read back the plan!!!
"OK, it's filed... Hayuv a nice day.", she chirped...
Slight pause on my part (the deer in the headlights look, my son, DL,
later dryly mentioned) as I was well into the role of mentor and
smoothly showing my son how it is done by a pro I thought ....
"Uhhh, I didn't get a squawk."
"Oh, I can't give you a squawk, ATC will assign that when you open your
flight plan."

Well, OK I can live with that, and I know where I'm going, I hope she
remembered... So we saddled up and turned lose those thumpin 150 HP
engines on Fat Albert... Airborne I coach DL through the mechanics of
contacting the nearest ATC and asking for the flight plan to be
opened... Gotcha #2 grins at us... Saginaw approach says they "don't"
open VFR flight plans... (Note, they didn't say can't, just don't - can
you spell 'controllers union versus the privatized FSS'?)
"You will have to talk to FSS.", click and silence...

Well, OK Martha Jane, I DO know how to talk to FSS... So we dial up FSS
and after a few calls get the nice lady... "Oh, your flight plan is
opened."...
So, back to Mr. Wonderful at Saginaw Approach...
highly condensed
"57 Pop is back with you and the VFR flight plan to Cleveland is
opened."
"OK, I can give you flight followingheh, heh, heh Squawk
'snookered', maintain 3500, blah, blah, blah...".... picture me with
sour expression
So, a few miles later we get told, "Leaving my airspace, radar services
terminated, squawk VFR.. You may be able to contact Flint." click...
silence...
Wearily I call Flint Approach... "Who are you, where are you, how high
are you (by now I wish)... And while he didn't say, why are you
bothering me, the attitude was there... The instant you say VFR flight
plan, the temperature in the voice drops 10 degrees...

The Coupe De Grass came on the return leg North lots of grubby details
condensed After Cleveland Approach pinged me to FSS and they ponged me
back, Cleveland finally, grudgingly, gave me a squawk,then waited until
I just touched Canadian Airspace and with a gloat in the voice says:
drum roll you all know what's coming
"Leaving my airspace, return to VFR, have a nice day.", click!
At that point I became annoyed and bluntly told ATC, "Wait a minute
Jack... I am in international airspace and you don't just dump me."
"Well, you can try contacting Detroit." Knowing full well that I am out
of range for Detroit

So, we spent the next 15+ miles calling Detroit... When I finally
reached them it was the three stooges who-what-why-go away routine all
over...

This morning I called the Great Lakes FSDO and spoke to an OPS
specialist... At first she gave me the party line... "tsk, tsk, I
don't know how that could happen, after all a VFR flight plan and
flight following are different programs."
After a bit she warmed up and finally told me, "Well Lockheed Martin
took over FSS and everything is changing and we don't know what ATC is
doing or why."

So, there you have it folks... File VFR and you become a scab walking
into the middle of a sit down strike... Beats me... I have been
banging around airports for over 60 years and flying the ATC system for
over 40 years, and I don't have a clue what to do...

denny

Denny wrote:
Well, we did the flight from Saginaw to Cleveland and back... As
promised I did file VFR and I will never, never, never, pinch me, n e
v e r, do that again... What a ghastly experience... And this is
from a fella who has been flying the ATC system for over 40 years - but
hasn't filed a VFR flight plan within that time frame (that I can
remember)..

snip

Thanks, Denny amusing story, and I feel your pain. I too seldom fly VFR, and
almost never file/activate a VFR flight plan. When I do, I am usually reminded
of why I don't do it more often.

I think your expectations are too high. ATC neither knows nor cares whether you
have filed a VFR flight plan. VFR flight plans never leave the domain of FSS.
They just sit there and wait for you to forget to close/cancel them, then SAR is
launched. That's really all they're good for.

Anyway, thanks again for a good read.

Dave

Denny wrote

So, there you have it folks... File VFR and you become a scab walking
into the middle of a sit down strike... Beats me... I have been
banging around airports for over 60 years and flying the ATC system for
over 40 years, and I don't have a clue what to do...

NOPE! Denny, you just don't understand what a VFR flight plan is for,
nor the common method for filing and opening one. They are filed
direct with a FSS over the telephone and opened by calling a FSS, either
direct or via the nearest VOR station. ATC doesn't get involved at all.
Yes, there are other ways of doing this, but why not do it the in the
expected manner.

Flight following (RADAR advisories) is an ATC function only and does not
depend on having a VFR flight plan filed nor opened.

Sounds as if you need to spend some time in the AIM.

Bob Moore