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2008 SSA Contest Rules Meeting Minutes
Hello Racers & Fans
The minutes of the 2008 meeting of he SSA Competition Rule Subcommittee are now available on the SSA web site under Sailplane racing/Rules & Process. Draft rules changes for review and comment will be available 12/22/08. UH H Nixon SSA Competition Rules Subcommittee Chair |
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2008 SSA Contest Rules Meeting Minutes
On Dec 13, 10:54*am, wrote:
Hello Racers & Fans The minutes of the 2008 meeting of he SSA Competition Rule Subcommittee are now available on the SSA web site under Sailplane racing/Rules & Process. Draft rules changes for review and comment will be available 12/22/08. UH H Nixon SSA Competition Rules Subcommittee Chair Apologies Hank, but I can't find it - can you post a link ? Thanks, Best Regards, Dave "YO electric" |
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2008 SSA Contest Rules Meeting Minutes
On Dec 13, 8:54*am, wrote:
Hello Racers & Fans The minutes of the 2008 meeting of he SSA Competition Rule Subcommittee are now available on the SSA web site under Sailplane racing/Rules & Process. Draft rules changes for review and comment will be available 12/22/08. UH H Nixon SSA Competition Rules Subcommittee Chair Sad the suggestion and issue of an East/West Nationals was given so little interest by the committee. From the informal poll by 5 Ugly it was favored by nearly 2/3 of the respondents, I guess our rules committee knows best. http://www.5ugly.blogspot.com/ East Coast-West Coast Nationals: (50 voters) Support: 64% Against: 36% From the minutes: "64 Consider East/West Nationals According to BB’s review, typically less that 3-4 pilots cross the Miss to go to nationals on the coast. Based on this, pilots are already essentially doing this. Lots of practical problems. This would have to be coordinated with the US Team committee for team selection. What would be the effect on overall contest participation. Who’s the national champion? If combining classes was necessary for adequate participation, would we have combined-class East and West champions? This would be a very large change from the way we’ve operated Nationals traditionally. It doesn’t appear that there is a problem of sufficient magnitude to justify such a change. No change." Only 3 to 4 pilots crossing the Mississippi each year, but it doesn't appear to be an issue; at least for the rules committee. They raised lots of questions (same ones we have seen before to protect the current system), but did not appear to be interested in finding any answers or even looking for them. |
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2008 SSA Contest Rules Meeting Minutes
http://www.ssa.org/myhome.asp?mbr=6310235857
Apologies Hank, but I can't find it - can you post a link ? Thanks, Best Regards, Dave "YO electric" |
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2008 SSA Contest Rules Meeting Minutes
Sad the suggestion and issue of an East/West Nationals was given so little interest by the committee. As usual, the minutes compactly summarize a long discussion. We all recognize the reality that most pilots choose to fly a different class rather than chase "their" class around the country. Clearly, a nationals and team-selection structure that better served this desire and reflected this reality would be good. Just as clearly, the considerations in the minutes are real. This isn't as easy as just declaring separate "east" and "west" nationals for each class. If we're going to fundamentally change the structure of nationals and team selection, that takes a concrete, comprehensive and well-thought out proposal. I'll be collecting ideas to see if there is something workable here. In the meantime, more "super-regionals" could well address pilot desire for national-level racing within an easy drive. That's already in the rules; encourage your local organizers to put one on. John Cochrane BB |
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2008 SSA Contest Rules Meeting Minutes
On Dec 13, 1:20*pm, wrote:
Sad the suggestion and issue of an East/West Nationals was given so little interest by the committee. As usual, the minutes compactly summarize a long discussion. We all recognize the reality that most pilots choose to fly a different class rather than chase "their" class around the country. Clearly, a nationals and team-selection structure that better served this desire and reflected this reality would be good. Just as clearly, the considerations in the minutes are real. This isn't as easy as just declaring separate "east" and "west" nationals for each class. *If we're going to fundamentally change the structure of nationals and team selection, that takes a concrete, comprehensive and well-thought out proposal. I'll be collecting ideas to see if there is something workable here. In the meantime, more "super-regionals" could well address pilot desire for national-level racing within an easy drive. That's already in the rules; encourage your local organizers to put one on. John Cochrane BB John, Thanks for the feedback. I know you have tried to address many of the issues facing racing in the US. I hope to see ideas and questions placed on next years SRA poll. I would be glad to help with addressing the questions raised about the concept over the next year. It would be nice to see a meaningful discussion on the issues of East/ West Nationals and the idea of a 7 day nationals that only takes two weekends and one week rather than the current format that requires at a minimum two full weeks. I think we will find both pilots, contest organizers and the airports we use would like the latter much better. I think the super regional idea is great, it is too bad that the only super regional so far this year has to compete with a nationals in the same area of the country during the same week (Region 9 vs 18M Nats in Region 8). Tim TT |
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2008 SSA Contest Rules Meeting Minutes
Rather than calling for a new class like Club Class or more nationals
like East/West, I feel we should be addressing the real possibility that what we have right now isn't being attended in great enough numbers to make it a viable propasition for contest organizers. At Montague next year I would think something like 10 standards, 10 opens and 10 in a co-regionals is all we could hope for and this econopy will only make those numbers decline. Most who have organized contests would agree that somewhere around 35 contestants is the minimum break even point. JJ |
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2008 SSA Contest Rules Meeting Minutes
On Dec 13, 10:05*am, Tim Taylor wrote:
On Dec 13, 8:54*am, wrote: Hello Racers & Fans The minutes of the 2008 meeting of he SSA Competition Rule Subcommittee are now available on the SSA web site under Sailplane racing/Rules & Process. Draft rules changes for review and comment will be available 12/22/08. UH H Nixon SSA Competition Rules Subcommittee Chair Sad the suggestion and issue of an East/West Nationals was given so little interest by the committee. From the informal poll by 5 Ugly it was favored by nearly 2/3 of the respondents, I guess our rules committee knows best. http://www.5ugly.blogspot.com/ East Coast-West Coast Nationals: (50 voters) Support: 64% Against: 36% From the minutes: "64 Consider East/West Nationals According to BB’s review, typically less that 3-4 pilots cross the Miss to go to nationals on the coast. Based on this, pilots are already essentially doing this. Lots of practical problems. This would have to be coordinated with the US Team committee for team selection. What would be the effect on overall contest participation. Who’s the national champion? If combining classes was necessary for adequate participation, would we have combined-class East and West champions? This would be a very large change from the way we’ve operated Nationals traditionally. It doesn’t appear that there is a problem of sufficient magnitude to justify such a change. No change." Only 3 to 4 pilots crossing the Mississippi each year, but *it doesn't appear to be an issue; at least for the rules committee. They raised lots of questions (same ones we have seen before to protect the current system), but did not appear to be interested in finding any answers or even looking for them. You gotta be ****in me.......... So, 50 voters on 5U's page, of which 32 (64%) (which is less that 5% of all the seeded pilots in the US) now requires all of us to make major changes in our present system? They have really studied our present system and understand the design? Who were these 32 voters? Have they even been to a regional or national event? How long have they even been in our sport? Ok, you got me, as your really gotta be ****in me................. 711. |
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2008 SSA Contest Rules Meeting Minutes
On Dec 13, 4:31*pm, wrote:
On Dec 13, 10:05*am, Tim Taylor wrote: On Dec 13, 8:54*am, wrote: Hello Racers & Fans The minutes of the 2008 meeting of he SSA Competition Rule Subcommittee are now available on the SSA web site under Sailplane racing/Rules & Process. Draft rules changes for review and comment will be available 12/22/08.. UH H Nixon SSA Competition Rules Subcommittee Chair Sad the suggestion and issue of an East/West Nationals was given so little interest by the committee. From the informal poll by 5 Ugly it was favored by nearly 2/3 of the respondents, I guess our rules committee knows best. http://www.5ugly.blogspot.com/ East Coast-West Coast Nationals: (50 voters) Support: 64% Against: 36% From the minutes: "64 Consider East/West Nationals According to BB’s review, typically less that 3-4 pilots cross the Miss to go to nationals on the coast. Based on this, pilots are already essentially doing this. Lots of practical problems. This would have to be coordinated with the US Team committee for team selection. What would be the effect on overall contest participation. Who’s the national champion? If combining classes was necessary for adequate participation, would we have combined-class East and West champions? This would be a very large change from the way we’ve operated Nationals traditionally. It doesn’t appear that there is a problem of sufficient magnitude to justify such a change. No change." Only 3 to 4 pilots crossing the Mississippi each year, but *it doesn't appear to be an issue; at least for the rules committee. They raised lots of questions (same ones we have seen before to protect the current system), but did not appear to be interested in finding any answers or even looking for them. You gotta be ****in me.......... So, 50 voters on 5U's page, of which 32 (64%) (which is less that 5% of all the seeded pilots in the US) now requires all of us to make major changes in our present system? They have really studied our present system and understand the design? *Who were these 32 voters? *Have they even been to a regional or national event? *How long have they even been in our sport? Ok, you got me, as your really gotta be ****in me................. 711. Tom, No one says we "have" to change it, but many of us would like for it to be explored. For you the current systems works fine, for others the weeks, miles and cost required to race in our respective classes is a limiting factor in participation. As JJ said the question is how do we get participation in contests to a level to make them sustainable. Providing a good site and great competition makes a site more attractive to pilots. Providing the incentive of national level points makes it even more attractive. Contests have evolved in the US over the last forty years, so saying "it has always been that way, why change it?" is not a valid argument. Forty years ago we had one class, today we have at least seven. I think having contests in each half of the country has the potential to increase numbers and racing skills for the entire country. We won't know until we have a good discussion about it. So far I have not seen a real discussion on the topic. I have been approached and e- mailed by many people that are interested in a change. While the one survey is not a large representation, it is a start to say there is interest in the idea. We already combine classes at contests so why would it be so hard to imagine contests in the east and west that allows the top 20 to 30 seeded pilots in each class to participate and earn national team points. We would likely be able to get 60 to 65 planes to make a contest worthwhile. If we consider reducing the contest to 7 days we will likely find more sites willing to host the contest and more pilots willing to participate. I am not set on any particular set of charges, but I would like to see the number of participants and the level of competition improved in the US. I don't think using Sports class in alternating years is a good substitute for flying in Std, 15m or 18M classes. I am glad that BB has been willing to start thinking about the idea as a representative of the SRA Rules committee and look forward to a thoughtful discussion that tries to look at the advantages and disadvantage of the possibilities as well as addressing the concerns about how a National Champion is selected (or if we need a national champion). The current system is not very good for team selection. It is based only on finish postion in a single class. Look at any of the classes and team selection is based on only a few that are willing to travel. http://soaringweb.org/US_TEAM In 15M only John Seaborn has flown in the last 3 contests out of 98 pilots on the list. Many of the pilots that have talked to me have been around the sport a long time. My first contest was about 1989 and my first nationals was 1992 if I remember correctly. It is easy to get in a game of who has been here longer, etc, but the real question is what is best for the sport long term. Tim TT |
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2008 SSA Contest Rules Meeting Minutes
On Dec 13, 6:17*pm, Tim Taylor wrote:
On Dec 13, 4:31*pm, wrote: On Dec 13, 10:05*am, Tim Taylor wrote: On Dec 13, 8:54*am, wrote: Hello Racers & Fans The minutes of the 2008 meeting of he SSA Competition Rule Subcommittee are now available on the SSA web site under Sailplane racing/Rules & Process. Draft rules changes for review and comment will be available 12/22/08. UH H Nixon SSA Competition Rules Subcommittee Chair Sad the suggestion and issue of an East/West Nationals was given so little interest by the committee. From the informal poll by 5 Ugly it was favored by nearly 2/3 of the respondents, I guess our rules committee knows best. http://www.5ugly.blogspot.com/ East Coast-West Coast Nationals: (50 voters) Support: 64% Against: 36% From the minutes: "64 Consider East/West Nationals According to BB’s review, typically less that 3-4 pilots cross the Miss to go to nationals on the coast. Based on this, pilots are already essentially doing this. Lots of practical problems. This would have to be coordinated with the US Team committee for team selection. What would be the effect on overall contest participation. Who’s the national champion? If combining classes was necessary for adequate participation, would we have combined-class East and West champions? This would be a very large change from the way we’ve operated Nationals traditionally. It doesn’t appear that there is a problem of sufficient magnitude to justify such a change. No change." Only 3 to 4 pilots crossing the Mississippi each year, but *it doesn't appear to be an issue; at least for the rules committee. They raised lots of questions (same ones we have seen before to protect the current system), but did not appear to be interested in finding any answers or even looking for them. You gotta be ****in me.......... So, 50 voters on 5U's page, of which 32 (64%) (which is less that 5% of all the seeded pilots in the US) now requires all of us to make major changes in our present system? They have really studied our present system and understand the design? *Who were these 32 voters? *Have they even been to a regional or national event? *How long have they even been in our sport? Ok, you got me, as your really gotta be ****in me................. 711. Tom, No one says we "have" to change it, but many of us would like for it to be explored. *For you the current systems works fine, for others the weeks, miles and cost required to race in our respective classes is a limiting factor in participation. *As JJ said the question is how do we get participation in contests to a level to make them sustainable. *Providing a good site and great competition makes a site more attractive to pilots. *Providing the incentive of national level points makes it even more attractive. Tim, it has been explored before, thats why the present system. In order for our contest's to work, as JJ said, we need racers, which we don't have. Not many can afford these plastic toys and the time to do it. This is like me wishing I could be an F1 racer. Attractive is for the beach, not for rising up the ladder of life without being tested. Whats limiting is bucks, skill and basic gut level determination, along with desire and recognition. As Yager would say, if ya had the "right stuff" you would of been their. Contests have evolved in the US over the last forty years, so saying "it has always been that way, why change it?" is not a valid argument. *Forty years ago we had one class, today we have at least seven. I never said why change it. I said you gotta be ****in me, and that was based on your 50 voters from 5U's blog. These voters could have been from a Monday nite mud slinging babyboomers contest for all we know. I think having contests in each half of the country has the potential to increase numbers and racing skills for the entire country. *We won't know until we have a good discussion about it. *So far I have not seen a real discussion on the topic. *I have been approached and e- mailed by many people that are interested in a change. *While the one survey is not a large representation, it is a start to say there is interest in the idea. There is well thought reasoning behind regional and national events. Just because you haven't seen it, it doesn't mean they haven't discussed it. You really don't think these rule committee guys go to their meeting, pay for their travel expenses and take time from their families just to undermine our sport do you? We already combine classes at contests so why would it be so hard to imagine contests in the east and west that allows the top 20 to 30 seeded pilots in each class to participate and earn national team points. *We would likely be able to get 60 to 65 planes to make a contest worthwhile. *If we consider reducing the contest to 7 days we will likely find more sites willing to host the contest and more pilots willing to participate. The Catagory I pilots in the USA are less than 50. If we had a Catagory 1 pilot race, it wouldn't even fill up or beak even for the organizers. Reducing the contest to a shorter period would possibly reduce the flying days to 3 or 4. With 10 days, at least our National champion has earned that title. A true test of skill envolves many areas. Slam, bam, thank you mam, doesn't belong in the test of a National Champion. Your not suggesting we bring down the rung of the ladder to allow more to rise?? Are you?? I am not set on any particular set of charges, but I would like to see the number of participants and the level of competition improved in the US. *I don't think using Sports class in alternating years is a good substitute for flying in Std, 15m or 18M classes. If your not set on any particular set of charges???? Well, turn in your visa and get american express................. I am glad that BB has been willing to start thinking about the idea as a representative of the SRA Rules committee and look forward to a thoughtful discussion that tries to look at the advantages and disadvantage of the possibilities as well as addressing the concerns about how a National Champion is selected (or if we need a national champion). *The current system is not very good for team selection. It is based only on finish postion in a single class. *Look at any of the classes and team selection is based on only a few that are willing to travel. Trust me on this, it has been well thought out way before bouncing BB came along. Love ya, John. The current US Team selection deals with seeding scores, not where you place. All catagory rankings deal with seeding scores and entry into contests. Your seeding score is your score divided by the winners score. The US Team selection is based on a 52/48 percent which looks back over the course of the last 3 Nationals. Its been designed so you don't have to travel accross the country to get a shot at a slot. Those that do travel accross the country do wish to increase their skills and realize that when they do go to the World's its not for a club med vacation. These are the folks that I know. Thats why I said ya gotta be **** me............... http://soaringweb.org/US_TEAM In 15M only John Seaborn has flown in the last 3 contests out of 98 pilots on the list. Many of the pilots that have talked to me have been around the sport a long time. *My first contest was about 1989 and my first nationals was 1992 if I remember correctly. *It is easy to get in a game of who has been here longer, etc, but the real question is what is best for the sport long term. Tim TT- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Since you have come forward, put these names together, along with the emails, send a petition around and then get in touch with your director. Form a committee to study this. Show leadship, step forward and get it done, as no one is stopping you from exploring your ideas.... but I will add again....you gotta be ****in me.......... 711 |
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