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Undershoot Vs. Overshoot airport landing accidents



 
 
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  #41  
Old April 23rd 19, 02:11 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Undershoot Vs. Overshoot airport landing accidents

A. The only Duo on our field sold recently so I don’t have access to one for testing.

B. If you watch both videos it can be readily observed that the steep approach is discontinued well before reaching ground effect. Both flights crossed the airport threshold at a nominal airspeed. One must scrub altitude early enough to get back to a stable approach before touchdown.

Having previously owned a Duo T (pre-XL) I’m pretty confident that this technique will be similarly effective, but don’t have the means to make that video at this time.

  #42  
Old April 25th 19, 04:25 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
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Default Undershoot Vs. Overshoot airport landing accidents

On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 6:11:25 AM UTC-7, wrote:
A. The only Duo on our field sold recently so I don’t have access to one for testing.

B. If you watch both videos it can be readily observed that the steep approach is discontinued well before reaching ground effect. Both flights crossed the airport threshold at a nominal airspeed. One must scrub altitude early enough to get back to a stable approach before touchdown.

Having previously owned a Duo T (pre-XL) I’m pretty confident that this technique will be similarly effective, but don’t have the means to make that video at this time.


An over-shoot landing accident isn't about fine-tuning technique: the pilot has simply become a passenger and has stopped flying the glider. The question is: why does someone who has passed the necessary demonstration of proficiency all of a suddenly enters into an out-of-body state of mind? I don't know and I don't know how to predict it.

Tom
  #43  
Old April 25th 19, 03:30 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Default Undershoot Vs. Overshoot airport landing accidents

Just because the certificate says "Pilot" does not mean the holder is
truly a pilot.Â* A monkey can be trained to perform the required
maneuvers, but not to extend to untrained situations.Â* I know just such
a man.Â* Fortunately for him and the sport.Â* He stopped flying.

On 4/24/2019 9:25 PM, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 6:11:25 AM UTC-7, wrote:
A. The only Duo on our field sold recently so I don’t have access to one for testing.

B. If you watch both videos it can be readily observed that the steep approach is discontinued well before reaching ground effect. Both flights crossed the airport threshold at a nominal airspeed. One must scrub altitude early enough to get back to a stable approach before touchdown.

Having previously owned a Duo T (pre-XL) I’m pretty confident that this technique will be similarly effective, but don’t have the means to make that video at this time.

An over-shoot landing accident isn't about fine-tuning technique: the pilot has simply become a passenger and has stopped flying the glider. The question is: why does someone who has passed the necessary demonstration of proficiency all of a suddenly enters into an out-of-body state of mind? I don't know and I don't know how to predict it.

Tom


--
Dan, 5J
  #44  
Old April 28th 19, 06:41 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charlie Quebec
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Default Undershoot Vs. Overshoot airport landing accidents

I was taught to always judge my circuit by the angles, and to do so with no instruments, so I’ve never been in a bad position on final.
What on earth do you do in the US that leads to the need for s turns, 360s etc?
In my winch training, I did several highly modified full circuits from 400ft with ease.
  #45  
Old April 28th 19, 12:31 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
ripacheco1967
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Default Undershoot Vs. Overshoot airport landing accidents

High is better...
https://youtu.be/z66osZ4ri5A
  #46  
Old April 28th 19, 04:55 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Default Undershoot Vs. Overshoot airport landing accidents

A poorly planned approach and a well executed slip.Â* Why do you ask
about what we do in the US when this is clearly German?

I agree with you on judging patterns with angles rather than instruments.

On 4/27/2019 11:41 PM, Charlie Quebec wrote:
I was taught to always judge my circuit by the angles, and to do so with no instruments, so I’ve never been in a bad position on final.
What on earth do you do in the US that leads to the need for s turns, 360s etc?
In my winch training, I did several highly modified full circuits from 400ft with ease.


--
Dan, 5J
  #47  
Old April 28th 19, 07:56 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Undershoot Vs. Overshoot airport landing accidents

On Sunday, April 28, 2019 at 1:41:47 AM UTC-4, Charlie Quebec wrote:
I was taught to always judge my circuit by the angles, and to do so with no instruments, so I’ve never been in a bad position on final.
What on earth do you do in the US that leads to the need for s turns, 360s etc?
In my winch training, I did several highly modified full circuits from 400ft with ease.


Most of my non-standard patterns here in the U.S. have come at the end of contest finishes. Whether using a finish line with a high-speed pass or a cylinder with a high floor, I was frequently lower or higher (respectively) and in closer proximity with other gliders than if I were just floating in to land after a pleasant local flight. At one mountain site, I finished very high for safety and made a high, somewhat longer pattern. Another pilot who had finished lower and was behind me called nervously to ask if I would hurry it up. I told him to turn in and I would extend. I turned onto base a little farther out than usual and then did a couple of S-turns until I could see him touch down and roll out safely, then turned final and landed using my normal high approach with brakes and slip.

Given a choice, I'm usually high. I feel like I can get rid of almost any amount of altitude safely (brakes, slip, dive, S-turns, whatever). But I can't get it back.

Chip Bearden
JB
  #48  
Old April 30th 19, 10:40 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
CindyB[_2_]
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Default Undershoot Vs. Overshoot airport landing accidents

On Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 8:28:44 AM UTC-7, wrote:
I always assumed that there are more overshoot airport accidents than undershoot ones. That is mainly due to our general knowledge that it's better to be too high than not high enough.
Am I correct here ?
Dan


You are not correct. We make impacting short a habit -- too clean, too low, too late on baseleg turn, too often undercalling the wind, Not Understanding How to Descend. Thus the typical belief is that an approach should be shallow.
"I'm in a 45:1 glider, I have to make a longer approach....."
This is Wrong.
If you ever find yourself having to clean up on Final,
you are doing it Wrong. You should be progressively dirtying-out.


soaringsafety.org
click on Flight Safety Programs, Accident Prevention, SSF Annual Reports

Pick a Year and begin reading. It is hugely enlightening.

In 2017 - (most recently available results):
Hit Object on Final - 2 (too low)
Stall/Spin - 1
Hit Object on Ground - 1
Land Short - 1
Land Long - 0
Other - 1

2016
Hit Object on Final - 3 (too low)
Stall/Spin - 1 into trees on approach(too low)
Hit Object on Ground - 2
Land Short - 0
Land Long - 1 asw28 over trees+long into trees
Other - 1 (lost-hit trees during outlanding=short)

2015
Hit Object on Final - 2 (too low)
Land Short - 2
Land Long - 1 (failed to open spoilers, three passes)

The majority of the US accidents are screwups on takeoff. PT3s
are the typical result of the screwup. This is why I offered my
SSA Webinar on Takeoff Dangers and How to Avoid Them. I would like to reduce this category of wreckage.
Go see it free anytime on the SSA website.

The second most common accident is landing short/hitting obstacles
short of the HOME runway. Trees, wires, fences, crops. Then the same
problem at outlandings .... being short of the targeted landing space.

I fully believe this comes from a failure to teach effective descent skills.. The The S's allow us to descend massively.
Spoilers, Slips, Speed.

Use the ones you are comfortable employing. Get training to expand your
personal envelope to include more tools. A normal approach should be half-dirty.

Drag increases exponentially with an increase in airspeed.
The truth is -- that exponent doesn't disappear after it has exhausted the
potential energy (altitude). When you round out fully dirty (all flaps or all spoilers or both/all) at speed -- the next thing to be scrubbed away exponentially is the kinetic energy. The speed WILL dissipate very quickly,
and even students realize that this has suddenly become a very normal looking landing.

Pilots who are 'handicapped' with flaps-only ships understand this.

Manufacturers shifted away from true landing/drag flaps, and the creation of landing-short accidents by pilots, to a more forgiving tool - spoilers. A reduction in landing flaps only creates a loss of lift and falling further below glide slope. Spoilers allow the reduction or return of lifting qualities to the airfoil for those oft-found occasions of being too-low on final approach.

I wish I could find my video on an old hard drive of a diving approach full dirty in a DuoDiscus (plain-Jane early one) that I had used in a landing training talk for an SSA Convention in about 2004. FULL Dirty with speed works. And Pete B knows it (as do my students).

Thanks,
Cindy B

 




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