Where are the armed pilots?

What a sad way to live - basing decisions on probabilities of things
happening. Is that how you make all your decisions?
Also, how do you know the probability that someone is going to do something
in your presence that could be countered with a handgun? What statistics
are you using for that? I would like to see those. I would expect that
someone who is in the statistics business (as you claim) and who seems to
know something about handgun ownership, would know that there are a large
number of unreported crime due to deterrence by handguns.

For me, any probability that I can use a gun in my defense (or anyone
else's) is enough to deal with any "inconvenience" of being questioned by
others/police.

Thankfully you are wise enough to have acknowledge that other people have
the right to defend themselves. It is a shame that the control freaks in
government can't understand this as well.

"Geoffrey Barnes" wrote in message
ink.net...
I have to say that I am surprised at the number of people
who feel that they are careful enough to take to the air and
yet don't think they could carry a gun without accidentally
shooting someone.

Again, it's a matter of probabilities. It is very unlikely that I would
accidentally shoot someone. But it is almost infinitely LESS likely that
I
will encounter the next Mohammed Atta at a GA airport. Or, for that
matter,
that I will encounter anyone who is intent on breaking into my car. The
risk of me having a negative result from being armed at the airport is, at
least in my own life, far greater than the chance that I would do anything
good with a firearm when I am there.

By negative result, I don't just mean shooting someone accidentally.
Let's
say that somebody notices that I am armed and calls the cops. In fact,
let's HOPE that somebody notices that I'm armed and calls the cops.
That's
certainly what I would do if I saw someone who was carrying a gun on the
flight line. And for the sake of argument, let's say that I have the
legal
right to carry in whatever state I'm in at the time. I still am going to
have to deal with an initially very nervous police officer, produce
identification, explain myself, and probably get run through a database
someplace so the cop can verify my story. This is going to take upwards
of
45 minutes to an hour to sort out, and I'd rather spend that time flying,
especially if night, weather, or my own physical endurance is closing in.

I simply see more costs than benefits in carrying a loaded firearm past
the
fence and onto the flight line. Your mileage may vary, but I can't
conceive
on an instance when being my armed at the airport would have had any
benefits at all. But I can recognize any number of instances when there
would have been costs for being so equipped.

As you say, you are armed just about everywhere you go. I don't live my
life that way. I'm not saying that you are wrong for living life the way
you do. Why don't you grant me the same courtesy?

"Newps" wrote in message news:UgjGb.642095$Tr4.1649643@attbi_s03...



Damn near .50 cal, that's what. And with the 2X scope pretty heavy too.

They used them for hunting buffalo...up close.

Judah wrote in message . ..
Some years ago, very near the place where I went to High School, an
innocent person was shot dead by a stray bullet as she walked down the
street.

That's horrible. I'm very sorry to hear that.

Perhaps that has provided the hint that innocent people can be
shot dead while they walk down the street.

That's true. It's always been true.

Perhaps, then, it is too risky to walk down the street.

That's absurd. Only an idiot would draw (or suggest) that as a
logical conclusion.

Oh, wait. It wasn't a terrorist.

What wasn't a terrorist? The source of the bullet, or the intended
target?

Who was it, then?

I'm not asking this lightly. Bullets don't come out of nowhere as
uncaused, random events (as your story seems to suggest). Someone
somewhere pulled the trigger of a gun. Presumably, there was criminal
activity involved, either intentional or negligent.

So, maybe it wasn't a terrorist, but it was some other flavor of
criminal. Who? Is this incident documented somewhere? I'd like to
read more about it.

Go ahead and live your life in fear.

Uh, no, thanks, I'll just continue to be free and happy as I have
been.

I prefer freedom.

Based on this post, I have to wonder if you know what that means.

Ron Natalie wrote:
"Newps" wrote in message news:UgjGb.642095$Tr4.1649643@attbi_s03...


Damn near .50 cal, that's what. And with the 2X scope pretty heavy too.


They used them for hunting buffalo...up close.

Not the .480. It's a new design in the last few years. The bullets
aren't heavy enough to kill a buffalo, the only ones available
commercially are 325 grain, at least the last time I checked. I'm sure
more are on the way. Best you could do is fill him with holes and have
him bleed to death. On soft tissue animals like deer and humans though
it would make a hole you sould stick an arm thru.

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message om...

I've heard it said that disclosing that you carry a concealed weapon
means you're not carrying a concealed weapon. Why would anyone want
to disclose that?

Depends on state law.

Umm, no, that's not what I mean. I guess I wasn't clear.

The value of concealing a handgun is a tactical advantage over
opponents. If an adversary doesn't know you have a gun, he may be
completely unable to defend against it, or so surprised that he fails
to defend in a timely manner.

If Ron is carrying a concealed handgun, and he goes around telling
everyone that he's carrying a concealed handgun, the "concealed"
status is compromised. Anyone who may have chosen Ron as a victim can
now make a well informed tactical assessment. This may be a deterrent
for attacks against Ron, but anyone chosing to go ahead will be
prepared to fire first and not be surprised.

That being the scenario, I postulate that this discussion won't
produce a large number of people indicating "I have a concealed
handgun, and I carry it at these times..." because those people would
lose the benefit they seek in carrying a concealed handgun - it's
self-defeating.

"Brien K. Meehan" wrote in message om...
"Ron Natalie" wrote in message om...

I've heard it said that disclosing that you carry a concealed weapon
means you're not carrying a concealed weapon. Why would anyone want
to disclose that?

Depends on state law.

Umm, no, that's not what I mean. I guess I wasn't clear.

The value of concealing a handgun is

The major reason many people get concealed weapons permits here is
that the "open carry" policy is a little arcane. Even those who walk
around with the gun on their hips typically have the permit.

"Geoffrey Barnes" wrote in message link.net...

Let's say (for the sake of argument) that there really is some danger of
terrorists using GA aircraft for their nefarious ends. I still fail to see
any real benefit in carrying a loaded firearm to the airport. The chances
of me hurting myself or some innocent party with that firearm are vastly,
enormously greater than the chances of me even encountering a terrorist at
the airport. Even in the extraordinarily unlikely event that I did wind up
at the same airport at the same time as our hypothetical terrorists, how
would I know they were doing anything out of the ordinary? Should I draw
down on anyone who looks like a foreigner? On anyone who is loading
something into a plane? Should I open fire on any cropduster that I see
taxing to to active, especially if the pilot looks like "one of dem
Ay-rabbs"?

Presumably, these questions are intentionally dim-witted and racist,
intended to be ironic. But, it's worth mentioning that most states'
CCW programs require a certain amount of training, including topics
like safe transport of weapons, and when it's legal and appropriate to
use deadly force.

I am vigilant. I am concerned about my safety, my passengers' safety, and
the safety of my nation. But I simply don't feel that, in my own situation,
being armed while out the airport increases anyone's safety. To the
contrary, I feel that it would make everyone involved marginally (but
significantly) less safe.

I goaded you a bit on this, and I apologize, but you were saying, in
effect, "I don't see any danger, I can't imagine any danger, so there
is no danger and certainly no need to do anything about it."

I'm trying to make it clear that there is certainly danger, and
vigilance is warranted. And if leaving your Sig at home in its
holdster enhances safety in your situation, then I wholeheartedly
support your decision.

Nomen Nescio wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Brings up an interesting question....How many of us Gen.Av. pilots bring our legal concealed
carry weapons up in the air with us?
I don't think I have ever seen a discussion of this issue.
So,
1) Are you licensed for concealed weapon carry and in how many states?
Yes, 18 states currently.

2) Do you carry your gun at the airport (often, rarely, etc.)?
Always with me unless, I must go somewhere that concealed carry
is prohibited. Prohibited areas pretty much are "properties
owned, rented or leased by city, county or federal governments for

the purpose of "doing business" with the public". Property for
the parking or use of vehicles is exempt. So for example, a
"city" operated FBO's building would be a prohibited area, but
not the ramp, runways, etc., or other "private" facilities or
businesses.

3) What do you do with it when you are flying?
Its always "on" me, except as in 2 above.

4) Have you ever had a problem with airport personel who may have caught sight of the gun?
In my state, the weapon must be concealed, so I've had no problems.

5) Have you ever been in a situation where you were thankful that you brought it with you?
Always glad to have it. On four occasions so far, "quite
thankful"
to have it, and on one occasion, "Really F***ing Thankful" to
have had it. The utility of firearm ownership and possession
does not need to be proven to me!

6) What do you usually carry?
Star Model 43 (an "utterly reliable" and accurate all steel
single action compact 9mm) with Cor-Bon 115gr JHP.

Tom Pappano, PP-ASEL-IA

You know, just like fuel, airspeed, gps, money, insurance,
"Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it"

What a sad way to live - basing decisions on probabilities of things
happening. Is that how you make all your decisions?

It probably is somewhat sad, but I simply can't get away from doing it.
It's like when I was a teenager, and I worked at a lifeguard at a local
swimming club. To this day, everytime I see some kid running, I have to
stifle the urge to yell "Walk!" at them. In my work, I've gotten so used to
calculating the probabilities of all kinds of arcane bull****, and it's
carried over to my whole life. There are times when it is downright silly,
but it's just the way I do things.

That being said, most of us do something similar even if we don't recognize
it. Take doing a thorough preflight, for example. Even the best preflight
won't make it 100% certain that your flight will end safely. We do it
because it boosts the odds that we will complete the flight safely. In
essence, we are simply trying to change the probabilities in our favor.

Also, how do you know the probability that someone is going to do
something
in your presence that could be countered with a handgun? What statistics
are you using for that? I would like to see those. I would expect that
someone who is in the statistics business (as you claim) and who seems to
know something about handgun ownership, would know that there are a large
number of unreported crime due to deterrence by handguns.

Actually, a better data reference from this would not be those things which
can't be measured (deterred offenses), but Gary Kleck's survey work on the
number of time that handguns are used for self defense every year. It's
really impressive work. Clearly there are benefits to having access to a
firearm. And as I think I said earlier, I do keep a firearm at home and, if
my life required me to travel in or through areas where I did not feel safe,
I would apply for a concealed permit. My life, as it stands right now,
doesn't put me into these kinds of situations, and so I chose to leave the
gun at home.

The key point of this thread, however, is not about handgun carrying
generally, but having a gun on your person at a GA airport. Again, I can't
pretend to have flown to every GA airport in the world. Maybe there are
airports out there where I would want to be armed. But I have yet to
encounter one where I personally have felt even the slightest bit unsafe.

Thankfully you are wise enough to have acknowledge that other people have
the right to defend themselves. It is a shame that the control freaks in
government can't understand this as well.

I do acknowledge your right to defend yourself, and I recognize that doing
so would be rather difficult without access to a firearm. If I felt that I
personally faced a measurable risk of using a firearm to anyone's benefit, I
would do as you have done. I just haven't encountered anything at any
airport that would lead me to feel this way. There are certainly
neighborhoods where I would want to be armed, but -- at least in my
experience so far -- none of them have been GA airports.

What a sad way to live - basing decisions on probabilities of things
happening....

What else would you use? Ignoring (well calculated) probabilities means making
decisions based on a whim and a prayer. Luck is good to have, but not to count
on.

Jose

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