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#11
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MMU 5 DP lost comm question
On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 17:04:39 -0600, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote: "Peter Clark" wrote in message .. . I'd probably decline the clearance or ask for vectors SBJ instead since I can't do the direct part, but if forced to attempt this I'd likely fly last given heading until getting onto an intercept for SBJ R-237 or R067, then turn towards BIGGY. What's the direct part? "Expect radar vectors BIGGY" then losing comms while on a vector? |
#12
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MMU 5 DP lost comm question
"Peter Clark" wrote in message ... "Expect radar vectors BIGGY" then losing comms while on a vector? What's the direct part? |
#13
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MMU 5 DP lost comm question
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"pgbnh" wrote in message ... Ummm. I think :in this day and age anyone who flies IFR in IMC WITH a GPS handheld, which would enable you to fly direct BIGGY, is just plain illegal. Oh? What law would flying IFR in IMC WITH a handheld GPS violate? Not RAIM or WAAS? |
#14
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MMU 5 DP lost comm question
"J.Kahn" wrote in message ... Not RAIM or WAAS? So what? |
#15
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MMU 5 DP lost comm question
J.Kahn wrote:
Steven P. McNicoll wrote: "pgbnh" wrote in message ... Ummm. I think :in this day and age anyone who flies IFR in IMC WITH a GPS handheld, which would enable you to fly direct BIGGY, is just plain illegal. Oh? What law would flying IFR in IMC WITH a handheld GPS violate? Not RAIM or WAAS? Nothing wrong with using a handheld GPS in IFR. It can't be your primary means of navigation, meaning you should be referring to your panel mounted nav instruments for primary. However, having a GPS adds considerably to situational awareness, and can save your bacon in an emergency. It is even legal to navigate using one for primary navigation if in radar coverage and given a "vector" to the waypoint. You tell ATC what heading you need and they give you that as a vector. |
#16
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MMU 5 DP lost comm question
Andrey Serbinenko wrote:
I would wait until 10 min to climb to 4000, and climb initially only to I have two doubts about that: First, it seems to contradict item iii of the following reg: FAR Sec. 91.185 - IFR operations: Two-way radio communications failure. ----------- (2) Altitude. At the highest of the following altitudes or flight levels for the route segment being flown: (i) The altitude or flight level assigned in the last ATC clearance received; (ii) The minimum altitude (converted, if appropriate, to minimum flight level as prescribed in .91.121(c)) for IFR operations; or (iii) The altitude or flight level ATC has advised may be expected in a further clearance. ----------- It lists "expected" along with everything else, and doesn't mention anywhere that you should wait for the EFC time to pass before using it. Secondly, while being radar-vectored I have never had to wait for ten minutes: three-four minutes maximum, which makes me think that staying low for that long may not in fact be desirable. In particular, staying at 2000 feet while maneuvering in southerly direction for too long can put me in close proximity to TEB ILS rw 6 approach path. I should mention that I am in Canada and the IFR regs are more or less the same, but in the Canadian AIM there is an explicit statement in reference to altitude in a comm failure situation: "the altitude or FL that ATC has advised may be expected in a further clearance (the pilot shall commence climb to this altitude/FL at the time/point specified by ATC to expect further clearance/altitude change)." The way you quoted the FAR above it certainly implies that you should start climbing right away. This is a significant difference in the lost comm procedures between Can/US. John |
#17
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MMU 5 DP lost comm question
"Ray Andraka" wrote in message ... Nothing wrong with using a handheld GPS in IFR. It can't be your primary means of navigation, meaning you should be referring to your panel mounted nav instruments for primary. However, having a GPS adds considerably to situational awareness, and can save your bacon in an emergency. It is even legal to navigate using one for primary navigation if in radar coverage and given a "vector" to the waypoint. You tell ATC what heading you need and they give you that as a vector. It is even legal to navigate using a handheld GPS for primary navigation in a radar environment without a "vector" to anywhere. |
#18
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MMU 5 DP lost comm question
Wrong..
On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 08:41:19 -0500, "pgbnh" wrote: Ummm. I think :in this day and age anyone who flies IFR in IMC WITH a GPS handheld, which would enable you to fly direct BIGGY, is just plain illegal. There are reasons that IFR certified GPS systems are certified wrote in message news In this day and age, anyone who flies IFR in IMC withut a GPS handheld, which would enable you to fly direct BIGGY, is just plain foolish... On 12 Nov 2007 04:10:11 GMT, Andrey Serbinenko wrote: A question to IR pilots. Suppose we have the following situation: a flight departing from MMU rw 23, cleared as follows: "Morristown 5 dep, vectors to BIGGY, then V3, MAZIE, etc... 2000 feet, expect 4000 10 minutes after departure, dep freq, squawk etc..." Now, during climb-out via heading 210 we lose communication. It is IMC. Standard question: what altitudes and routing you'd fly? The aircraft we're flying is /U, so we can't navigate direct BIGGY. First question: would you keep flying the DP, i.e. left turn 160? If so, for how long would you fly heading 160 after you turn? Lost comm instructions in the DP do not apply to us since we're southbound. In order to get onto V3 you'd probably need to fly direct SBJ, and proceed from there, but SBJ is not part of your clearance? Second question -- the altitude: OROCA in the quadrant is 2900. MSA provided by Jepp for CAT is 2000 in this sector. Would you climb to 4000 right away, or you'd wait for 10 mins? MEAs of the airways in that vicinity are 2300 and 3000 feet. Andrey |
#19
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MMU 5 DP lost comm question
"Illegal" is the wrong word. Navigating by a handheld GPS as the primary
source of navigation (as was suggested in the prior posting) is not permitted. As an adjunct to some other, primary navigation device, certainly GPS makes good sense. The prior poster suggested just using the handheld to go direct BIGGY. "Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message ... "pgbnh" wrote in message ... Ummm. I think :in this day and age anyone who flies IFR in IMC WITH a GPS handheld, which would enable you to fly direct BIGGY, is just plain illegal. Oh? What law would flying IFR in IMC WITH a handheld GPS violate? |
#20
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MMU 5 DP lost comm question
See earlier post. "Illegal" was the wrong word. But, doing what you
advocated - navigating direct BIGGY using the handheld (AS THE PRIMARY NAV SOURCE) is not permitted. The OP already indicated he could not navigate direct BIGGY because he was not properly equipped. wrote in message ... Wrong.. On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 08:41:19 -0500, "pgbnh" wrote: Ummm. I think :in this day and age anyone who flies IFR in IMC WITH a GPS handheld, which would enable you to fly direct BIGGY, is just plain illegal. There are reasons that IFR certified GPS systems are certified wrote in message news In this day and age, anyone who flies IFR in IMC withut a GPS handheld, which would enable you to fly direct BIGGY, is just plain foolish... On 12 Nov 2007 04:10:11 GMT, Andrey Serbinenko wrote: A question to IR pilots. Suppose we have the following situation: a flight departing from MMU rw 23, cleared as follows: "Morristown 5 dep, vectors to BIGGY, then V3, MAZIE, etc... 2000 feet, expect 4000 10 minutes after departure, dep freq, squawk etc..." Now, during climb-out via heading 210 we lose communication. It is IMC. Standard question: what altitudes and routing you'd fly? The aircraft we're flying is /U, so we can't navigate direct BIGGY. First question: would you keep flying the DP, i.e. left turn 160? If so, for how long would you fly heading 160 after you turn? Lost comm instructions in the DP do not apply to us since we're southbound. In order to get onto V3 you'd probably need to fly direct SBJ, and proceed from there, but SBJ is not part of your clearance? Second question -- the altitude: OROCA in the quadrant is 2900. MSA provided by Jepp for CAT is 2000 in this sector. Would you climb to 4000 right away, or you'd wait for 10 mins? MEAs of the airways in that vicinity are 2300 and 3000 feet. Andrey |
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