An odd clearance...can anyone explain?

At the risk of repeating myself....if you don't understand, ask!!!

Bob Gardner

"Andrew Gideon" wrote in message
online.com...
Departing Lancaster the other day, I received an odd clearance. I was
cleared from the airport to the Lancaster VOR, then East Texas VOR...

It was that first leg (Lancaster Airport to Lancaster VOR) that confused
me.
The VOR is on the field. I have little choice but to go past it as a
trundle down the runway awaiting rotation speed.

So...why that clearance? What is expected of me?

What I did was go to the VOR (as I accelerated down the runway {8^) and
then
proceeded to ETX. But was that right?

- Andrew

Thank you Bob!...why did it take 11 replies in the thread before anyone
mentioned asking the controller? If he/she gave you the clearance, chances
are he/she is in a good position to answer this question.



"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
...
At the risk of repeating myself....if you don't understand, ask!!!

Bob Gardner

"Andrew Gideon" wrote in message
online.com...
Departing Lancaster the other day, I received an odd clearance. I was
cleared from the airport to the Lancaster VOR, then East Texas VOR...

It was that first leg (Lancaster Airport to Lancaster VOR) that confused
me.
The VOR is on the field. I have little choice but to go past it as a
trundle down the runway awaiting rotation speed.

So...why that clearance? What is expected of me?

What I did was go to the VOR (as I accelerated down the runway {8^) and
then
proceeded to ETX. But was that right?

- Andrew

Brad Z wrote:

Thank you Bob!...why did it take 11 replies in the thread before anyone
mentioned asking the controller? If he/she gave you the clearance,
chances are he/she is in a good position to answer this question.

The weird thing: I did ask. I got no response. Literally.

But I was late. Instead of asking clearance delivery (it didn't click a
weird while I copied it), I asked the tower just before takeoff.

- Andrew

In article ne.com,
Andrew Gideon wrote:

Brad Z wrote:

Thank you Bob!...why did it take 11 replies in the thread before anyone
mentioned asking the controller? If he/she gave you the clearance,
chances are he/she is in a good position to answer this question.

The weird thing: I did ask. I got no response. Literally.

But I was late. Instead of asking clearance delivery (it didn't click a
weird while I copied it), I asked the tower just before takeoff.

- Andrew

The tower could probably care less what your clearance is or how you fly
it. His only job is to tell approach when you're ready to go and clear
you for takeoff when he gets your release.

"Andrew Gideon" wrote in message
online.com...
Departing Lancaster the other day, I received an odd clearance. I was
cleared from the airport to the Lancaster VOR, then East Texas VOR...

"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
...
At the risk of repeating myself....if you don't understand, ask!!!

Reminds me of a guy who posted here many years ago about an incident in
Canada. IIRC departing Ottawa he thought was cleared via the Ottawa VOR
then enroute fixes, but had a lot of trouble with the accents. He didn't ask
for clarification (well not more than a couple of times). So he took off
and turned back towards the on-field VOR, only to find that that made ATC
really upset. Turns out he had been cleared via the Ottawa *Four*
[departure], not the Ottawa *VOR*.

(Actually I remembered it with poetic licence but my story's better than
reality... ;-)
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...353%40peck.com

Julian

"Julian Scarfe" wrote in message
...
"Andrew Gideon" wrote in message
online.com...
Departing Lancaster the other day, I received an odd clearance. I was
cleared from the airport to the Lancaster VOR, then East Texas VOR...

"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
...
At the risk of repeating myself....if you don't understand, ask!!!

Reminds me of a guy who posted here many years ago about an incident in
Canada.

The Ottawa VOR is 11 miles off-field, so it wouldn't quite as bizarre as
clearance to an on-field navaid.

"Icebound" wrote in
news

"Julian Scarfe" wrote in message
...
"Andrew Gideon" wrote in message
online.com...
Departing Lancaster the other day, I received an odd clearance.
I was cleared from the airport to the Lancaster VOR, then East
Texas VOR...

"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
...
At the risk of repeating myself....if you don't understand, ask!!!

Reminds me of a guy who posted here many years ago about an incident
in Canada.

The Ottawa VOR is 11 miles off-field, so it wouldn't quite as bizarre
as clearance to an on-field navaid.







If you pass the VOR within 1/2 mile, I would consider that as 'crossing
the VOR'. The original poster was close to the VOR when he took off.
Hence I don't see a need to return to that VOR after taking off. Just
proceed to the next fix.

Andrew Sarangan wrote:
If you pass the VOR within 1/2 mile, I would consider that as 'crossing
the VOR'. The original poster was close to the VOR when he took off.
Hence I don't see a need to return to that VOR after taking off. Just
proceed to the next fix.

I agree with Andrew, but feel compelled to point out that this is only
true for an en-route clearance. If you were flying a DP which said
something like "fly runway heading to 1000, left turn direct Lancaster
VOR, the proceed on course", that would be a different story.

But, the OP didn't say anything about a DP, so I'm assuing that's not
what was going on here.

Andrew 11/09/2004 5:58:04 am
Departing Lancaster the other day, I received an odd clearance. I was
cleared from the airport to the Lancaster VOR, then East Texas VOR...

It was that first leg (Lancaster Airport to Lancaster VOR) that confused
me.
The VOR is on the field. I have little choice but to go past it as a
trundle down the runway awaiting rotation speed.

So...why that clearance? What is expected of me?

What I did was go to the VOR (as I accelerated down the runway {8^) and
then
proceeded to ETX. But was that right?

- Andrew

Andrew,

I would just have made a pilot intercept of the appropriate Lancaster VOR
radial as soon as practical.

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 22:52:44 -0400, Andrew Gideon
wrote:

zatatime wrote:

What I've been taught to be correct is to maintain runway heading
until at an altitude that maneuvering won't be a problem (just like
any other take off) and then turn and fly direct to the VOR. After
station passage continue on your normal route.

That was the possibility that I'd considered and rejected. I'd be very
interested to know on what you're basing that this is correct, as it's not
what I ultimately chose.

I think it would depend on the actual clearance received. If you
received a "...direct Lancaster VOR..." clearance then it would be
proper to overfly the VOR. If you received a different clearance then
you may not have to. In my experiences I usually get something like
"climb to 2000, direct SBJ, Vsoandso to wherever...." so that is why I
said what I said.


As far as I know, there's no requirement that a clearance start with "the
closest fix to the airport". When I depart CDW to the west, for example,
the clearance starts with LANNA. If using a closer fix were necessary,
we'd use the closer fix of SBJ...esp. given that LANNA is defined by a
radial from SBJ, and there's no other way a /U can reasonably locate LANNA
w/o passing by SBJ.
This is why there was a delay in my response. I wanted to try to find
some documentation to back up what I was taught, and I wasn't home
much the last few days. Guess what? There isn't any! The only thing
I found was a statement sating the departure point will be to a
'nearby' fix. Nowhere did I find you have to file to the closest fix.
This leads me to questions since I obviously either was taught
incorrectly, or interpreted what I was taught incorrectly.

What is the definition of nearby? Can I file to any VOR or
intersection, say, within 20 miles of my departure point? Do I have
to actually file starting with a fix, or can I just file from any
point on an airway? Given the busy nature of the NY area, what are my
odds of getting a clearance using a fix further away? (That last one
may just come from experience). A better understanding of this sure
will help me pick better routes in the future since I'd always file to
the closest, even if I had a crappy route to my destination.

As far as your example: How the heck do you get to LANNA if your a
/U? I'm thinking your clearances are Radar Vectors to LANNA
then.....otherwise, as you state you have to go to SBJ VOR anyway, so
why doesn't the clearance start there?

More, there's nothing wrong with intercepting an airway at some point not a
defined waypoint. I've been told in clearances to fly some heading or
radial to intercept an airway plenty of times. So intercepting the airway
between the Lancaster VOR and ETX is no great feat.

Agreed, I've had similar experiences, but can you file it that way?


Finally, turning and flying back toward the VOR on the field puts me into
potential conflict with the VFR pattern. I don't know that there were any
of those on the day of my visit, but I don't know that there weren't.

So I decided to not do what you think is correct. So I might have been
wrong. As I wrote, I'd be very interested in something which shows this to
be the case (or not to be the case, of course {8^).

To know what was right or wrong, as I said, we'd need the actual
clearance. Sitting here I can't tell either way, but I am happy to
have learned something, and hope anyone with answers to the questions
this thread has raised in my head can be discussed.

Again - sorry for the delayed response.

z