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Emergency Descents with ATC COMS - Video



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 23rd 09, 02:51 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
[email protected]
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Posts: 838
Default Emergency Descents with ATC COMS - Video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxkiT8gWIQo

Had never done an emergency descent with banking as a tool. It was
suggested to me to try this with a 90 degree bank.

Very interesting experience as it really works and works quickly! I
tried 2 without banking and 2 with banking of which the video contains
one of each.

Video contains both outside and instrumentation views but the
instrumentation view unfortunately wasn't as good as I hoped. Camera
power saving feature shut the camera off and I lost my zoom setting.

Comments here or on the video most appreciated on helping me improve
the technique as this was my first time doing this
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  #2  
Old August 23rd 09, 03:41 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
a[_3_]
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Posts: 562
Default Emergency Descents with ATC COMS - Video

On Aug 22, 9:51*pm, " wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxkiT8gWIQo

Had never done an emergency descent with banking as a tool. *It was
suggested to me to try this with a 90 degree bank.

Very interesting experience as it really works and works quickly! *I
tried 2 without banking and 2 with banking of which the video contains
one of each.

Video contains both outside and instrumentation views but the
instrumentation view unfortunately wasn't as good as I hoped. *Camera
power saving feature shut the camera off and I lost my zoom setting.

Comments here or on the video most appreciated on helping me improve
the technique as this was my first time doing this


Question for you -- What are the Sundowner limits on pitch and bank?

Another speedy way down is a slip of course -- it also allows enough
throttle to keep the engine warm.



  #3  
Old August 23rd 09, 04:25 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
BeechSundowner
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Posts: 138
Default Emergency Descents with ATC COMS - Video

On Aug 22, 9:41*pm, a wrote:

Question for you -- What are the Sundowner limits on pitch and bank?

Another speedy way down is a slip of course -- it also allows enough
throttle to keep the engine warm.


Interesting question as I don't think there is a limit for pitch and
bank? I never heard of this?

Per FAR 91.303, 90 degree bank is not considered an acro maneuver as
banks are not abrupt changes in attitude the way I understand it. It
would be considered a commercial maneuver I think.

  #4  
Old August 23rd 09, 08:28 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Alan[_6_]
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Posts: 164
Default Emergency Descents with ATC COMS - Video

In article BeechSundowner writes:
On Aug 22, 9:41=A0pm, a wrote:

Question for you -- What are the Sundowner limits on pitch and bank?

Another speedy way down is a slip of course -- it also allows enough
throttle to keep the engine warm.


Interesting question as I don't think there is a limit for pitch and
bank? I never heard of this?

Per FAR 91.303, 90 degree bank is not considered an acro maneuver as
banks are not abrupt changes in attitude the way I understand it. It
would be considered a commercial maneuver I think.



91.303 clearly says:
For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means an intentional
maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's attitude, an abnormal
attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not necessary for normal flight.

I think it can reasonably be claimed that 90 degrees bank is "an abnormal attitude".


91.307(c) says that if there were any passengers, everyone must be wearing
an approved parachute. I guess you could play with these solo, but it would
be a lot smarter to have an instructor experienced in this along for the first
few times.

Alan
  #5  
Old August 23rd 09, 10:04 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Flaps_50!
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Posts: 117
Default Emergency Descents with ATC COMS - Video

On Aug 23, 1:51*pm, " wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxkiT8gWIQo

Had never done an emergency descent with banking as a tool. *It was
suggested to me to try this with a 90 degree bank.

Very interesting experience as it really works and works quickly! *I
tried 2 without banking and 2 with banking of which the video contains
one of each.

Video contains both outside and instrumentation views but the
instrumentation view unfortunately wasn't as good as I hoped. *Camera
power saving feature shut the camera off and I lost my zoom setting.

Comments here or on the video most appreciated on helping me improve
the technique as this was my first time doing this


You were conducting aerobatic flight. Breaking the law is one thing
but are you certified for aerobatics? What about your aircraft? This
could get you killed. Let me remind you that aerobatics are maneuvers
outside those required for "normal" flight FAR 91.303. To get down
quickly you should slip, or use full flaps, The risk of overspeed is
very high, you have to increase drag to dump energy...
Cheers


  #6  
Old August 23rd 09, 12:52 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
a[_3_]
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Posts: 562
Default Emergency Descents with ATC COMS - Video

On Aug 22, 10:41*pm, a wrote:
On Aug 22, 9:51*pm, " wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxkiT8gWIQo


Had never done an emergency descent with banking as a tool. *It was
suggested to me to try this with a 90 degree bank.


Very interesting experience as it really works and works quickly! *I
tried 2 without banking and 2 with banking of which the video contains
one of each.


Video contains both outside and instrumentation views but the
instrumentation view unfortunately wasn't as good as I hoped. *Camera
power saving feature shut the camera off and I lost my zoom setting.


Comments here or on the video most appreciated on helping me improve
the technique as this was my first time doing this


Question for you -- What are the Sundowner limits on pitch and bank?

Another speedy way down is a slip of course -- it also allows enough
throttle to keep the engine warm.


I don't have the documentation handy and my memory may be in error,
but I think the Mooney's limits when used in the general utility
category are 30 degrees pitch 60 degrees bank. Since it's used mainly
for XC, mostly under IFR, there's no reason to ever come close to
those limits. I wondered if the Sundowner certification was markedly
different.
  #7  
Old August 23rd 09, 12:57 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
a[_3_]
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Posts: 562
Default Emergency Descents with ATC COMS - Video

On Aug 23, 7:52*am, a wrote:
On Aug 22, 10:41*pm, a wrote:





On Aug 22, 9:51*pm, " wrote:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxkiT8gWIQo


Had never done an emergency descent with banking as a tool. *It was
suggested to me to try this with a 90 degree bank.


Very interesting experience as it really works and works quickly! *I
tried 2 without banking and 2 with banking of which the video contains
one of each.


Video contains both outside and instrumentation views but the
instrumentation view unfortunately wasn't as good as I hoped. *Camera
power saving feature shut the camera off and I lost my zoom setting.


Comments here or on the video most appreciated on helping me improve
the technique as this was my first time doing this


Question for you -- What are the Sundowner limits on pitch and bank?


Another speedy way down is a slip of course -- it also allows enough
throttle to keep the engine warm.


I don't have the documentation handy and my memory may be in error,
but I think the Mooney's limits when used in the general utility
category are 30 degrees pitch 60 degrees bank. *Since it's used mainly
for XC, mostly under IFR, there's no reason to ever come close to
those limits. I wondered if the Sundowner certification was markedly
different.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Ah, here it is, and it isn't just Mooneys.

a. FAR Section 91.71 defines "acrobatic flight" as "an
intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's
attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not
necessary for normal flight." In addition, Section 91.15(c)
indirectly refers to acrobatic flight in which it specifies that
"unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved
parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft, carrying any person
(other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver
that exceeds:

(1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or

(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees
relative to the horizon."

  #8  
Old August 23rd 09, 02:03 PM
Gauntlet Gauntlet is offline
Junior Member
 
First recorded activity by AviationBanter: Aug 2009
Posts: 2
Default

atlieb,

Whether your technique is effective or not is one question. Whether what you did was safe is another.

I'm assuming from your initial posts that this technique has not been demonstrated to you by a flight instructor, and is not approved in the Pilot's Operating Handbook or similar. If this is the case, then congratulations! You have now embarked on a career as an amateur experimental test-pilot, stepping boldly into the unknown etc.

Without knowing a whole lot more about you, your aircraft and the exact circumstances of your flight, no-one here is in a position to judge whether what you did was "safe" or not. But I kind of suspect that you may not have considered all the intricacies of your new profession in flight test. So, if I may, I'd like to ask a few questions about how you undertook this experiment:

What is the maximum normal acceleration for your aircraft? What was the maximum normal acceleration you experienced?

What is the corner speed for your aircraft? What was your calibrated airspeed in relation to corner speed?

What is Va for your aircraft? If you were above Va, what is the limiting aileron deflection?

What is the limiting sideslip angle for your aircraft? What sideslip angle did you achieve?

On the instrumentation video it looks like your rate of descent was off the clock. So with high ROD and large angle-of-bank, how much vertical airspace did you calculate that you would require to recover? What height did you enter the manoeuvre? What height did you commence recovery? What height did you recover at?

How much normal acceleration did you use in the recovery?

High normal acceleration equals increase stall speed. What do you think your stall speed was during this manoeuvre? And what are the accelerated stall characteristics for this aircraft?


Remember that whilst this is a theory test, it is not an open-book exam... Especially as you have already conducted the practical!

It may be that you considered all of the above, found satisfactory answers to those questions, and conducted your flight with all risks as low as is reasonably possible. I still think your life expectancy would be better without part-time experimentation, but well done on your testing philosophy.

But, if some of the questions make you stop and think, or you can't see the relevance, or (worse still) you can't understand the question, then amateur test-piloting is not for you and I would strongly advise that you stay safely within the bounds of the aircraft envelope.

Good luck, either way.

Last edited by Gauntlet : August 23rd 09 at 03:00 PM. Reason: Addressed it to the wrong user - sorry Flap 50!
  #9  
Old August 23rd 09, 02:17 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Robert Moore
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Posts: 134
Default Emergency Descents with ATC COMS - Video

"Flaps_50!" wrote

You were conducting aerobatic flight.


TRUE

Breaking the law is one thing


IN WHAT RESPECT

but are you certified for aerobatics?


PILOTS DON'T HAVE TO BE CERTIFIED FOR AEROBATICS in the USofA

What about your aircraft?


When properly equipped, the B23 and C23 are approved for limited
aerobatics. (Wikipedia)

This could get you killed.


Normal takeoffs and landings kill a lot of pilots.

Let me remind you that aerobatics are maneuvers
outside those required for "normal" flight FAR 91.303.


LET ME REMIND YOU.... that the Sundowner is approved for Spins.
Google "Beechcraft Sundowner Spins" and you will find a reference
to "The Light Airplane Pilot's Guide to Stall/Spin Awareness By Rich
Stowell". I would suggest that you read the paragraphs on the following
web page.
http://books.google.com/books?id=i8r...A304&lpg=PA304
&dq=Spins+in+sundowner&source=bl&ots=u0xxM-hDbY&sig=r8g_VtQN_AjTS8Cql-
tWtg0geRo&hl=en&ei=KD2RSo_BKoH8tge9p6TPBA&sa=X&oi= book_result&ct=result&
resnum=10#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Jeeze...damn amateurs.......

Bob Moore
ATP B-727, B-707, L-188
USN S-2F , P-2V , P-3B
Flight Instructor ASE-I
PanAm (retired)


  #10  
Old August 23rd 09, 03:12 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
BeechSundowner
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Posts: 138
Default Emergency Descents with ATC COMS - Video

On Aug 23, 6:57*am, a wrote:
* * * * * * * (1) *A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or

* * * * * * * (2) *A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees
* * * relative to the horizon."


Check out the following references.

FARS 91.303 defines Acrobatic flight. http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part91-303-FAR.shtml
This was only a bank exercise (NOT pitch), recovery was not an abrupt
attitude change as you can see in the video.

FARS 91.307 http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part91-307-FAR.shtml
defines when a parachute is required. I was solo (I was NOT carrying
other people in this video)

This maneuver I was told is a maneuver for commercial jet jockeys and
they are not certified for aerobatics.
 




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