Transporting water to glider

Michael, Kilo Charlie and others, thanks for the info.

It looks like the air mattress is the best solution for me. Kilo Charlie's
tank and bilge pump is elegant but it requires a pick-up truck.

Does anybody have a specific recommendation for a air mattress and any
modifications that it will need?

Bill Daniels

"Michael Stringfellow" wrote in message
news:wqVjc.10615$6L3.3055@fed1read05...
This is a common problem for us here in Arizona, with several fields we
fly
at being dry.

Looking at our cross-country pilots, who fly ballasted most of the time,
the
water storage/transport methods fall into the following three categories

1) Tanks of various shapes and sizes (rectangular and cylindrical),
usually
mounted in the vehicle or truck bed and with capacities in the 50 to 100
gallon range.

2) Rigid plastic containers. The blue 7-gallon ones (available from
Mal-Wart) are a good compromise between capacity and ease of lifting.

3) Inflatable plastic containers (air beds), usually roof-mounted.

We drive our vehicles carrying the water up to the glider. The most
common
filling method is gravity, with 12V electric pumps the second most common.
Most of use a vertical open-ended pressure-relief tube to avoid
over-pressure.

Several pilots evacuate their bags with vacuum pumps prior to filling
them.

Hope this helps

Mike

ASW 20 WA

"Bill Daniels" wrote in message
news:G1Vjc.39485$cF6.1713298@attbi_s04...
I Googled r.a.s and found posts about water beds, truck inner tubes and
collapsible plastic cubes from Wal-Mart. The plastic cubes will
transport
50 gallons and fit inside my Jeep Grand Cherokee but nothing else will
fit
and I don't want to unload the Jeep just for this chore. Full 10 gallon
water containers weigh more than 90 pounds and I don't like lifting that
much to pour it into the wing. I don't like water beds and inner tubes
either.

So, bright r.a.s people, how do you neatly and easily transport ballast
water to the glider if the gliderport doesn't have a tanker or water
hoses
on the ramp? Once you get it there, how do you get it into the glider?

Bill Daniels

Todd:

I and a few others use an RV water pump that has a rate of around 2 US
gallons a minute.


Mike ASW 20 WA


"Todd Pattist" wrote in message
...
"Kilo Charlie" wrote:

all you need to do is to fill the tank,
connect the pump to a cigaretter lighter and begin filling the wings. If
you need more details I'm be happy to answer them here or via private
e-mail.

What is your transfer rate with the electric pump?
Todd Pattist - "WH" Ventus C
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)

"HL Falbaum" wrote in message
news:GjXjc.9465$lz5.929079@attbi_s53...
In spite of your preference, I have been using a single bed camping air
mattress from Wal-Mart for years. I put it on top of my Jeep Grand
Cherokee
and fill with gravity. Need a water bed filling kit to attach hose to the
receptacle. Roll it up when done and it's out of the way. Holds 40 gallons
easily---enough for my '27B


I just measured the top of my Grand Cherokee and it is 37" across between
the roof rack rails and 57" long with the rack crossbars as far apart as
possible. Do you remember which air mattress you use?

BTW, I checked water beds and all I find are 84" long.

Bill Daniels

"HL Falbaum" wrote in message
news:GjXjc.9465$lz5.929079@attbi_s53...
In spite of your preference, I have been using a single bed camping air
mattress from Wal-Mart for years. I put it on top of my Jeep Grand
Cherokee
and fill with gravity. Need a water bed filling kit to attach hose to the
receptacle. Roll it up when done and it's out of the way. Holds 40 gallons
easily---enough for my '27B


I'm rapidly coming around to your solution. My guess is that you are using
the 'Coleman's Kid's Air Mattress' ($12 @ Wall-Mart) that is 28" x 59"x 6"
which will hold about 40 gallons and neatly fits on the roof of the Grand
Cherokee.

However, somewhat belatedly, I just did the W&B on the Nimbus 2C with regard
to water ballast. At the 1433 pound MTOW I will need 500 pounds of ballast
or 60 gallons. The CG moves slightly forward from the current 80% aft
position. (Now I know why the POH specifies 51 PSI in the main tire.)

So, the Kids Mattress isn't going to do it with one trip to the water hole.
Anybody know of a slightly larger waterbed/air mattress?

Bill Daniels

I use a mattress as well with the same opening you mention.
Make an 1" copper tube adaptor to your hose and slip it in.
It will not slide out under pressure unless you pull it out.
Put a bit of lube on it to make it slide in. Also smooth copper tube end
with fine emery cloth.
Udo



How do you connect to the air fittings with a water bed kit?
My air mattresses all have a 1" diameter plastic opening
without threads for rapid low pressure inflation and
deflation (same as on my Camel-Back water bottle), and a
smaller 1/4" or less air tube that you can blow into to top
it off. The water bed fittings all seem to be threaded. Is
yours different, or is there some way to connect to the
large unthreaded air fitting?
Todd Pattist - "WH" Ventus C
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)

In article G1Vjc.39485$cF6.1713298@attbi_s04, Bill Daniels
writes
I Googled r.a.s and found posts about water beds, truck inner tubes and
collapsible plastic cubes from Wal-Mart. The plastic cubes will transport
50 gallons and fit inside my Jeep Grand Cherokee but nothing else will fit
and I don't want to unload the Jeep just for this chore. Full 10 gallon
water containers weigh more than 90 pounds and I don't like lifting that
much to pour it into the wing. I don't like water beds and inner tubes
either.

So, bright r.a.s people, how do you neatly and easily transport ballast
water to the glider if the gliderport doesn't have a tanker or water hoses
on the ramp? Once you get it there, how do you get it into the glider?

Bill Daniels

25 litre plastic drums. I can carry 4 of these in the back of my Volvo.
We have a hand pump, but its a difficult messy job, so I built a stand
for a BIG funnel which we can connect to the water ports on out DG202.

Haven't had a chance to try it yet.
--
Mike Lindsay

To be specific
I use a "Ozark Trail" brand twin size air mattress from Wal-Mart part Num
68957
75" x 37.5" x 7.5" inflated size
The large "exhaust" valve has screw-on thread that fits water bed filling
kit.
It has a velour side for non scratching of car top.
It is nowhere near full at 40 gal, as I routinely fill to 50 "just in case".
I have had occasional "disconnects" in the line and lost some. I think it
would hold more--Let's see----75 x 37.5 x 7.5 = 21,093.75 cu in or 12.207 cu
ft. At 7.48 gal per cu ft that's 91 gal.
I put the hose end under the rear crossbar, and drape the fwd end over the
fwd crossbar. The water flows nicely till nearly empty, then I must fold the
forward part to the rear and so on.
The number from the bar code is 78257 68957
I bought a spare and I am reading from the package. As I recall, the cost
was less than 25 USD at Wal-Mart.

Hope this helps

--
Hartley Falbaum
ASW 27B "KF" USA

"Bill Daniels" wrote in message
news:3hckc.16977$RE1.1449581@attbi_s54...

"HL Falbaum" wrote in message
news:GjXjc.9465$lz5.929079@attbi_s53...
In spite of your preference, I have been using a single bed camping air
mattress from Wal-Mart for years. I put it on top of my Jeep Grand
Cherokee
and fill with gravity. Need a water bed filling kit to attach hose to
the
receptacle. Roll it up when done and it's out of the way. Holds 40
gallons
easily---enough for my '27B


I just measured the top of my Grand Cherokee and it is 37" across between
the roof rack rails and 57" long with the rack crossbars as far apart as
possible. Do you remember which air mattress you use?

BTW, I checked water beds and all I find are 84" long.

Bill Daniels

Todd.....it depends upon what bilge pump you put in.....they run from
something like 200 to 600 gallons per hour. I have a 360gph which seems
about right wrt not pushing it in too fast but fast enough that I can fill
each wing in around 5-10 minutes (9lbs vs gross).

Also I wanted to note that the tank fits in the back end of a Ford Explorer
or Expedition with all the seats up and with room to spare and does not
require a truck.....at least if you are in the US. I know that some
countries are more conscientious re fuel economy and therefore have smaller
vehicles and so it would not fit in a Mini for example!

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix

"Bill Daniels" wrote in message
news:Z%dkc.17643$lz5.1406385@attbi_s53...

"HL Falbaum" wrote in message
news:GjXjc.9465$lz5.929079@attbi_s53...
In spite of your preference, I have been using a single bed camping air
mattress from Wal-Mart for years. I put it on top of my Jeep Grand
Cherokee
and fill with gravity. Need a water bed filling kit to attach hose to
the
receptacle. Roll it up when done and it's out of the way. Holds 40
gallons
easily---enough for my '27B


I'm rapidly coming around to your solution. My guess is that you are
using
the 'Coleman's Kid's Air Mattress' ($12 @ Wall-Mart) that is 28" x 59"x 6"
which will hold about 40 gallons and neatly fits on the roof of the Grand
Cherokee.

However, somewhat belatedly, I just did the W&B on the Nimbus 2C with
regard
to water ballast. At the 1433 pound MTOW I will need 500 pounds of
ballast
or 60 gallons. The CG moves slightly forward from the current 80% aft
position. (Now I know why the POH specifies 51 PSI in the main tire.)

So, the Kids Mattress isn't going to do it with one trip to the water
hole.
Anybody know of a slightly larger waterbed/air mattress?

Bill Daniels
Hey Bill,
Maybe buy two of 'em and stck 'em up.
'Course you could try puttinng on 50-100 pounds, then you wouldn't need so
much ballast.
Cheers!, Pete
(Still having withdrawal pains)

Bill Daniels wrote:

So, bright r.a.s people, how do you neatly and easily transport
ballast water to the glider if the gliderport doesn't have a tanker or
water hoses
on the ramp? Once you get it there, how do you get it into the
glider?

What infrastructure does your gliderport have? If there is not a tap
close enough at your local site, can you bribe the management to get
one installed? Get the other single seater pilots to contribute to the
costs.

I always carry a long (about 40m) 1/2" diameter garden hose in the
trailer and a collection of tap fittings (about 6) of different sizes.

Then I tow the glider with the one man reverse tow kit as close as I can
to a tap, select the required tap fitting, unwind the hose pipe and
"full it up". Winding up the hose afterwards is the biggest job. (It is
good manners to move the glider away from the tap ASAP when you tanked
up, as you are probably in somebody's way - usually the pilot in the
queue behind you).

When I had the Nimbus II I put the hose straight into the ballast tank
opening on the top of the wing. You have to full the wing supported
with the wing wheel first. I used a stop watch to time the fulling time
to get an estimate of how much water had gone in. This helps to get the
same amount of water in each wing. (But it was not a problem taking off
if the balance was not perfect).

Another approach is to full the tanks 'till they overflow, then dump
water for a timed release to get down to the required loading. This can
be done during tow or after release if your situation allows you to
take off with full tanks.

Just make sure you can't pressurise the wing tank. This will cause
expensive damage, very quickly. Putting a 3/4" hose into a S-H filling
port might not leave enough room for the overflow to get out fast
enough if you forget to stop the hose. A 1/2" hose is safe.

Now I fly an LS3. (Easier on the back) But is has bags not tanks, so I
use a funnel with a hose sized to plug into the dump vent on the bottom
of the wing. The funnel has a stand which holds it about 300mm above
hight of the cockpit. I put the garden hose into the top of the funnel.
The main function of this kit is to protect the wing from over
pressure. With the LS3 I have to hold the heavy wing in the air when I
start fulling the 2nd wing. In theory you need two people for this. I
can do it on my own - but it splashes a little. I don't bother to suck
the air out of the bags before filling, and I never quite get them 100%
full but that does not matter - I get enough water in to reach my
desired wing loading.

Keep your filling kit simple. The faster you get the water in, the
sooner you can launch and the more distance you can cover in the day.

Also, the easier it is to full the glider, the more often you will use
water and the better your "flying with water" skills will become. If
you only use water on those very special days, you won't be ready to
extract maximum advantage from the extra wing loading.

I usually take off with more water than the conditions warrent and dump
some when airborne.

Test dump a full load of water on the ground while watching carefully
and timing with a stop watch. Then you know how many seconds it takes
to dump all the water, and you get an idea how "linear" the dump rate
is by watching the outflow. Also note if both tanks dump at the same
rate - if there is a big discrepancy the dump valves may need
maintenance. Then count seconds while dumping in the air so as to have
an idea how much water is in board.

It may be worth doing one full from known capacity containers. Then you
can establish how much water you tanks can actually hold and confirm if
they both hold the same volume.

Ian


PS: The Nimbus II flies best when the water overflowing from the filler
valves and freezes into an icicle on the top surface of the wing -
because it's sitting at 18000' :-)