RAF Hampdens question on paint scheme

Hi,

At this URL...

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/southfly/hampden.htm

I have posted several pictures of 489 NZ Sqn Hampdens. I am trying to
gather information on why one Hampden (XA-Y) appears to be painted in
an 'ocean' grey and sky scheme, yet images of both earlier and later
Hampdens from the sqn show them in Green/Brown/Black schemes. (Of
course, the photo dates could be wrong...).

Can anyone shed any light on this matter, please? Was it a trial
scheme, as I have only ever seen this Hampden wearing it?

I am gathering info on the aircraft flown by 489 Sqn with the aim of
publishing a book on the topic... any data anyone can provide is most
welcome, esp. with regard to the Beauforts and Blenheims initially
operated by the sqn.

I managed to view several photos of the Mosquitos the sqn operated at
the end on WWII, so hope to publish some profiles soon.

Thanks very much,
Ian

Ian wrote:

Hi,

At this URL...

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/southfly/hampden.htm

I have posted several pictures of 489 NZ Sqn Hampdens. I am trying to
gather information on why one Hampden (XA-Y) appears to be painted in
an 'ocean' grey and sky scheme, yet images of both earlier and later
Hampdens from the sqn show them in Green/Brown/Black schemes. (Of
course, the photo dates could be wrong...).

Can anyone shed any light on this matter, please? Was it a trial
scheme, as I have only ever seen this Hampden wearing it?

I am gathering info on the aircraft flown by 489 Sqn with the aim of
publishing a book on the topic... any data anyone can provide is most
welcome, esp. with regard to the Beauforts and Blenheims initially
operated by the sqn.

I managed to view several photos of the Mosquitos the sqn operated at
the end on WWII, so hope to publish some profiles soon.


Ian:

This sounds like a Coastal Command color scheme, probably really Extra
Dark Sea Gray over Sky. I would have to do some digging into a mound of
books to be sure, but I believe a couple of hampden squadrons were
tasked with torpedo bombing for a while using modified aircraft. See if
you can beg, borrow or steal a copy of the book "Hampden Special" from
Ian Allen publishers. Should have some info.

Bill Shuey

Bill Shuey

In message , Ian
writes
At this URL...

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/southfly/hampden.htm

I have posted several pictures of 489 NZ Sqn Hampdens. I am trying to
gather information on why one Hampden (XA-Y) appears to be painted in
an 'ocean' grey and sky scheme, yet images of both earlier and later
Hampdens from the sqn show them in Green/Brown/Black schemes. (Of
course, the photo dates could be wrong...).

Hi Ian
Looking at the photos on the web and a couple of the same aircraft in
the Hampden Special I believe this aircraft is painted in the standard
Coastal Command scheme of extra dark sea grey and dark slate grey over
sky. Note that all the photos are from the same shoot and that the less
common type of B&W film (Orthochrome I think, I can never remember which
is which). This type of film gives some unusual effects with certain
colours, and the roundels are the giveaway - the red and blue tonal
values are reversed, with red coming out nearly black, and the yellow is
very dark. One noticeable trait of this type of film is it is very
difficult to distinguish between EDSG and DSG - the Hampden Special has
very faint tonal variations which may or may not be a camouflage
pattern. Note also the lack of underwing roundels, another trait of
Coastal command schemes.
The photos in the special are credited "British Official" and appear to
come from a walkround series - these were usually taken for a reason -
whether this was the colour scheme, the modified bomb doors (to enclose
a torpedo) or something else I don't know.
--
Dave Swindell

This is not specifically related to the question but when you mentioned
torpedoes, this might be relevant.
There was a torpedo bomber Operational Training Unit (OTU) at Patricia Bay
(now Victoria Airport, BC, Canada) using Hampdens.They also used Beauforts
which were later "donated" to the RCAF. These were later replaced by
Venturas in Squadron service.
I believe that the only existing Hampden is at the Canadian Museum of Flight
at Langley BC. It is from that OTU. It was recovered and restored after 50
years under water.
Cheers,
Doc H

"William H. Shuey" wrote in message
...
Ian wrote:

Hi,

At this URL...

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/southfly/hampden.htm

I have posted several pictures of 489 NZ Sqn Hampdens. I am trying to
gather information on why one Hampden (XA-Y) appears to be painted in
an 'ocean' grey and sky scheme, yet images of both earlier and later
Hampdens from the sqn show them in Green/Brown/Black schemes. (Of
course, the photo dates could be wrong...).

Can anyone shed any light on this matter, please? Was it a trial
scheme, as I have only ever seen this Hampden wearing it?

I am gathering info on the aircraft flown by 489 Sqn with the aim of
publishing a book on the topic... any data anyone can provide is most
welcome, esp. with regard to the Beauforts and Blenheims initially
operated by the sqn.

I managed to view several photos of the Mosquitos the sqn operated at
the end on WWII, so hope to publish some profiles soon.


Ian:

This sounds like a Coastal Command color scheme, probably really Extra
Dark Sea Gray over Sky. I would have to do some digging into a mound of
books to be sure, but I believe a couple of hampden squadrons were
tasked with torpedo bombing for a while using modified aircraft. See if
you can beg, borrow or steal a copy of the book "Hampden Special" from
Ian Allen publishers. Should have some info.

Bill Shuey

Bill Shuey

Dave Swindell wrote in message ...
In message , Ian
writes
At this URL...

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/southfly/hampden.htm

I have posted several pictures of 489 NZ Sqn Hampdens. I am trying to
gather information on why one Hampden (XA-Y) appears to be painted in
an 'ocean' grey and sky scheme, yet images of both earlier and later
Hampdens from the sqn show them in Green/Brown/Black schemes. (Of
course, the photo dates could be wrong...).

Hi Ian
Looking at the photos on the web and a couple of the same aircraft in
the Hampden Special I believe this aircraft is painted in the standard
Coastal Command scheme of extra dark sea grey and dark slate grey over
sky. Note that all the photos are from the same shoot and that the less
common type of B&W film (Orthochrome I think, I can never remember which
is which). This type of film gives some unusual effects with certain
colours, and the roundels are the giveaway - the red and blue tonal
values are reversed, with red coming out nearly black, and the yellow is
very dark. One noticeable trait of this type of film is it is very
difficult to distinguish between EDSG and DSG - the Hampden Special has
very faint tonal variations which may or may not be a camouflage
pattern. Note also the lack of underwing roundels, another trait of
Coastal command schemes.
The photos in the special are credited "British Official" and appear to
come from a walkround series - these were usually taken for a reason -
whether this was the colour scheme, the modified bomb doors (to enclose
a torpedo) or something else I don't know.

Thanks Dave,

You don't think it's more likely to be the standard monochrome top
finish, then eg EDSG?
Looks like I'll have to get that book!

In message , Ian
writes
You don't think it's more likely to be the standard monochrome top
finish, then eg EDSG?
The standard temperate sea scheme upper surface colour for FAA and
Coastal Command was a two tone scheme of Extra Dark Sea Grey and Dark
Slate Grey. All over top surfaces in Extra Dark Sea Grey was not the
norm until after the war, but there are cases where this was used (eg
Banff wing Mossies). The point I was making earlier is with Ortho film
it's very difficult to prove a two tone temperate sea scheme without
other evidence, as a general rule though I'd go with a two tone scheme
with Ortho photo's if the aircraft was serving with the FAA or Coastal
Command and I had no other backup (eg a Pan or colour film shot, or
documentary evidence otherwise) As this appears to be a one off scheme,
(other photo's I have of UK operated TB1's would appear to show
retention of their old Bomber Command Scheme) then either could be the
case, but the port forward view appears to show slight tonal variations
in a camouflage pattern, the stbd side view does as well if you look
really closely, but I might be seeing what I want to here! I think on
balance the two tone is more likely, but unless someone has pan or
colour shots of this plane then there is no way of knowing for sure.
--
Dave Swindell

The restored one at Langley (Canadian Museum of Flight) was from the torpedo
bomber OTU at Patricia Bay.
It is now in standard Bomber Command colours. I had taken some pics the last
time I was there but am still unpacking after a move. I assume that they
picked this up from the vestiges of paint left on the airframe after
recovery. I will be in that area in September and will try to get some pics.
If you do a search for "canadian museum of flight langley" you will find
their site. However, it is currently under construction. The photos of the
Hampden are all in grey primer.

Cheers,

Doc

"Dave Swindell" wrote in message
...
In message , Ian
writes
You don't think it's more likely to be the standard monochrome top
finish, then eg EDSG?
The standard temperate sea scheme upper surface colour for FAA and
Coastal Command was a two tone scheme of Extra Dark Sea Grey and Dark
Slate Grey. All over top surfaces in Extra Dark Sea Grey was not the
norm until after the war, but there are cases where this was used (eg
Banff wing Mossies). The point I was making earlier is with Ortho film
it's very difficult to prove a two tone temperate sea scheme without
other evidence, as a general rule though I'd go with a two tone scheme
with Ortho photo's if the aircraft was serving with the FAA or Coastal
Command and I had no other backup (eg a Pan or colour film shot, or
documentary evidence otherwise) As this appears to be a one off scheme,
(other photo's I have of UK operated TB1's would appear to show
retention of their old Bomber Command Scheme) then either could be the
case, but the port forward view appears to show slight tonal variations
in a camouflage pattern, the stbd side view does as well if you look
really closely, but I might be seeing what I want to here! I think on
balance the two tone is more likely, but unless someone has pan or
colour shots of this plane then there is no way of knowing for sure.
--
Dave Swindell

On 15 Aug 2004 22:11:31 -0700, (Ian) wrote:

Hi,

At this URL...

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/southfly/hampden.htm

I have posted several pictures of 489 NZ Sqn Hampdens. I am trying to
gather information on why one Hampden (XA-Y) appears to be painted in
an 'ocean' grey and sky scheme, yet images of both earlier and later
Hampdens from the sqn show them in Green/Brown/Black schemes. (Of
course, the photo dates could be wrong...).


There was a proposal that these Hampdens carried an early/experimental
Torpedo bombing scheme of Medium Sea Grey over Sky

There is evidence on the elevator of a pattern.

See here for a previous discussion:

http://disc.server.com/discussion.cg...;pagemark =60


Don't reply to the btconnect address - and remove nospam!!

Dave Fleming wrote in message . ..
On 15 Aug 2004 22:11:31 -0700, (Ian) wrote:

Hi,

At this URL...

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/southfly/hampden.htm

I have posted several pictures of 489 NZ Sqn Hampdens. I am trying to
gather information on why one Hampden (XA-Y) appears to be painted in
an 'ocean' grey and sky scheme, yet images of both earlier and later
Hampdens from the sqn show them in Green/Brown/Black schemes. (Of
course, the photo dates could be wrong...).


There was a proposal that these Hampdens carried an early/experimental
Torpedo bombing scheme of Medium Sea Grey over Sky

There is evidence on the elevator of a pattern.

See here for a previous discussion:

http://disc.server.com/discussion.cg...;pagemark =60


Don't reply to the btconnect address - and remove nospam!!


Thanks for that- is there any way of seeing the photos these guys are talking about?

On 18 Aug 2004 18:38:04 -0700, (Ian) wrote:




Thanks for that- is there any way of seeing the photos these guys are talking about?

Probably still have them somewhere - I'll look and see


Don't reply to the btconnect address - and remove nospam!!