Confusion about when it's my navigation, and when it's ATC

Morgans writes:

He is flying a simulator "game," so he isn't really flying anything, and has
no consequences to whatever he does.

The consequences are slightly different; IFR flight, however, is the
same, with the same rules and procedures, with a few very minor
exceptions imposed by technical constraints (not applicable in the
context of this discussion).

--
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Mxsmanic,

He is flying a simulator "game," so he isn't really flying anything, and has
no consequences to whatever he does.

The consequences are slightly different; IFR flight, however, is the
same, with the same rules and procedures, with a few very minor
exceptions imposed by technical constraints


How would you know? Many here can make a direct comparison - and have. You can't.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Mxsmanic,

I fly from KLAX to KLAS


No, you don't. For the sake of those reading here that haven't
discovered your background, please state clearly that you are playing
MS FS.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Thomas Borchert writes:

No, you don't.

I did so last night. Today, at least thus far, it was Chandler to
Sedona, and then back from Sedona to Phoenix.

For the sake of those reading here that haven't
discovered your background, please state clearly that you are playing
MS FS.

Why? Most people don't have a phobia of simulation, and for things
like instrument flight and ATC, simulation isn't different enough from
real life to matter for most of the major concepts of both. In
domains where I suspect there may be a discrepancy, I ask for
clarification, which is why I'm here.

--
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Mxsmanic,

Why? Most people don't have a phobia of simulation, and for things
like instrument flight and ATC, simulation isn't different enough from
real life to matter for most of the major concepts of both.


Jeeze, not always the same again.

Your description of your "flight" would never, ever happen in the real
world (which, BTW, means that you statement about the differences
between sim and RL is complete, utter BS). Thus, if you really want
people to react in a sensible way, you need to provide the context,
which is simming. If you don't, people won't understand your post in the
least bit.

Since you have been made aware of this problem in your posts several
times, the only logical conclusion is that you are not interested in
sensible reactions. That's why people conclude you're a troll, not
someone asking for clarification.

--

Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Thomas Borchert writes:

Your description of your "flight" would never, ever happen in the real
world (which, BTW, means that you statement about the differences
between sim and RL is complete, utter BS).

Which aspect of the flight was unlike the real world?

As I recall, I started at gate 35 at KLAX, was cleared to KLAS with
LOOP4 DAG KEPEC1 at FL290, left on 24L (which is right behind the
gate), and proceeded more or less uneventually to KLAS, with a few
minor modifications to my route from ATC along the way. I did have to
fight with the autopilot and FMS on the way in to KLAS, but only
because I'm not that experienced with them yet. I'm getting better.
In particular, I'm slowly figuring out how to change things en route
so that I can adapt to instructions from ATC, instead of being
compelled to let the FMS fly the entire route as originally entered.
As I get used to it, I like the FMS more than I did at first.

Thus, if you really want people to react in a sensible way, you need
to provide the context, which is simming.

Which part of the above doesn't happen in real life?

If you don't, people won't understand your post in the least bit.

They seem to have understood it without any difficulty.

Since you have been made aware of this problem in your posts several
times, the only logical conclusion is that you are not interested in
sensible reactions.

No. Another, more probable possibility is that it's not a problem to
begin with, except in your own perception, which is not universal.

That's why people conclude you're a troll, not someone asking
for clarification.

Virtually no one has reached this conclusion, apart from a vocal
minority that finds me irritating. It's unfortunate that I end up
explaining this to that minority in almost every thread in which I
participate. If they would just stick to the topic, things would go
much better for all.

--
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Mxsmanic wrote:
Which aspect of the flight was unlike the real world?

You never left the ground?

In article ,
Mxsmanic wrote:

If the FMC has a programmed descent in its
route, do I let the FMC start the descent where it sees fit, or do I
force the aircraft to maintain FL290 until ATC explicitly clears me
for my own navigation or for a lower altitude?

It seems what you really want is to read the rules about clearances in
the AIM. The section on the altitude portion of a clearance is 4.4.3.d
and can be found at

http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/AIM/Chap4/aim0404.html


d. Altitude Data.

1. The altitude or flight level instructions in an ATC clearance
normally require that a pilot "MAINTAIN" the altitude or flight level at
which the flight will operate when in controlled airspace. Altitude or
flight level changes while en route should be requested prior to the
time the change is desired.

2. When possible, if the altitude assigned is different from the
altitude requested by the pilot, ATC will inform the pilot when to
expect climb or descent clearance or to request altitude change from
another facility. If this has not been received prior to crossing the
boundary of the ATC facility's area and assignment at a different
altitude is still desired, the pilot should reinitiate the request with
the next facility.

3. The term "cruise" may be used instead of "MAINTAIN" to assign a block
of airspace to a pilot from the minimum IFR altitude up to and including
the altitude specified in the cruise clearance. The pilot may level off
at any intermediate altitude within this block of airspace.
Climb/descent within the block is to be made at the discretion of the
pilot. However, once the pilot starts descent and verbally reports
leaving an altitude in the block, the pilot may not return to that
altitude without additional ATC clearance.

Pixel Dent writes:

3. The term "cruise" may be used instead of "MAINTAIN" to assign a block
of airspace to a pilot from the minimum IFR altitude up to and including
the altitude specified in the cruise clearance. The pilot may level off
at any intermediate altitude within this block of airspace.
Climb/descent within the block is to be made at the discretion of the
pilot. However, once the pilot starts descent and verbally reports
leaving an altitude in the block, the pilot may not return to that
altitude without additional ATC clearance.

I think I read this section before; this paragraph sounds familiar. I
always get instructions to "maintain," though. What's the phraseology
when I get a block of altitudes? Or does it even happen with
frequency in real life? How do I request it (or do I even need to
request it)?

--
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In article ,
Mxsmanic wrote:

Pixel Dent writes:

I think I read this section before; this paragraph sounds familiar. I
always get instructions to "maintain," though. What's the phraseology
when I get a block of altitudes? Or does it even happen with
frequency in real life? How do I request it (or do I even need to
request it)?

In general (i.e. I'm sure someone will come up with an exception), you
won't get things like cruise clearances, VFR on Top Clearances, or block
altitudes unless you specifically ask for them. 99% of the time ATC
gives you an altitude and expects you to stay there until they tell you
otherwise.

That doesn't mean you can't ask for a descent when your FMS tells you it
wants to start down, but there are a number of reasons you may not get
it. There may be conflicting traffic below you or the controlling
authority for the area you are in may have letters of agreement with the
surrounding areas that specify what altitude flights heading in various
directions or to various destinations must be at. In addition sometimes
the controller you're talking to doesn't control the altitude you want
to head down to. For a given ground position there may be three
different controllers handling different altitude blocks and your guy
may not have time to coordinate or even be allowed to descend flights
into the area below you.