Investigators Say Student Pilots Should Be Flagged

Hi,

In article ,
Peter wrote:
My point, which Judah phrased much better, was simply that "stuff happens"
and it makes no sense to add more regulations and complexity every time an
accident or incident indicates a possible gap in the rules--or to try to
find or enact a crime that might fit every situation. All of us will die;
but, if we expend less effort fretting about unusual causes, most of us
would live more complete and enjoyable lives before our death.

While that's true, and adding more and more 'rules' isn't necessarily going
to help, it can't be harmful to have a standardised method for inexperienced
(not just student) pilots to identify themselves as such to ATC and other
pilots.

'Heathrow Tower, Tyro G-ANDY base' isn't much more to say, and can convey
this inexperience without too much extra effort.

Military fields already have a mechanism for doing this (the 'Tyro' above is
the military term). Extending this to civilian air traffic seems as good a
way as any to me.

I do agree though, there appear to have been a lot of small isolated factors
in this accident that just all came together to make its consequences so
bad.

Andy

"Andy Hawkins" wrote in message
...
Hi,

In article ,
Peter wrote:
My point, which Judah phrased much better, was simply that "stuff
happens"
and it makes no sense to add more regulations and complexity every time
an
accident or incident indicates a possible gap in the rules--or to try to
find or enact a crime that might fit every situation. All of us will
die;
but, if we expend less effort fretting about unusual causes, most of us
would live more complete and enjoyable lives before our death.

While that's true, and adding more and more 'rules' isn't necessarily
going
to help, it can't be harmful to have a standardised method for
inexperienced
(not just student) pilots to identify themselves as such to ATC and other
pilots.

'Heathrow Tower, Tyro G-ANDY base' isn't much more to say, and can convey
this inexperience without too much extra effort.

Military fields already have a mechanism for doing this (the 'Tyro' above
is
the military term). Extending this to civilian air traffic seems as good a
way as any to me.

I do agree though, there appear to have been a lot of small isolated
factors
in this accident that just all came together to make its consequences so
bad.


How about squawking "1201" for student pilots?

"Andy Hawkins" wrote

I do agree though, there appear to have been a lot of small isolated
factors
in this accident that just all came together to make its consequences so
bad.

I hate to speak ill of the dead, but wow! How far away from ready are you
to solo, if all it takes is a distraction to keep you from advancing the
throttle from idle, when you are not trying to land?

It should be so automatic, that distractions should not be an issue. When
things were not happening (like climbing) it should not be hard to notice
that your engine was making no noise, right?

I am truly sorry this young man died. It sucks that things piled up on him,
and non standard procedures took place. Part of training has to be
expecting the unexpected, but above all, fly the plane. That did not
happen.

I think that he was not ready to solo. More drilling on unusual situations
needed to take place, without a doubt. The big thing that needed to be
taught is fly the plane. Always. Without fail. No matter what.
--
Jim in NC

"Andy Hawkins" wrote in message
...
Hi,

In article ,
Peter wrote:
My point, which Judah phrased much better, was simply that "stuff
happens"
and it makes no sense to add more regulations and complexity every time
an
accident or incident indicates a possible gap in the rules--or to try to
find or enact a crime that might fit every situation. All of us will
die;
but, if we expend less effort fretting about unusual causes, most of us
would live more complete and enjoyable lives before our death.

While that's true, and adding more and more 'rules' isn't necessarily
going
to help, it can't be harmful to have a standardised method for
inexperienced
(not just student) pilots to identify themselves as such to ATC and other
pilots.

'Heathrow Tower, Tyro G-ANDY base' isn't much more to say, and can convey
this inexperience without too much extra effort.

Military fields already have a mechanism for doing this (the 'Tyro' above
is
the military term). Extending this to civilian air traffic seems as good a
way as any to me.

I do agree though, there appear to have been a lot of small isolated
factors
in this accident that just all came together to make its consequences so
bad.

Andy

Well, I did use some of that idle time to read the entire report.

The proposal at the end of the report seemed to make the Student/Tyro call
sign a recommended standard for all student solo flights, which would
suddenly end when the private pilot certificate was issued. IMHO, that is
an egregious idea for at least two reasons: 1) it is just one more example
of the worse of the "Nanny State" and 2) it suddenly ends exactly when the
new pilot is first exposed to the distraction and responsibility of
passengers.

However, the call sign recommendation was my only criticism of the report,
which was remarkably thorough and complete--expecially for a single aircraft
accident with only the pilot aboard and no injuries on the ground.

Interestingly, it appears that the student pilot did absolutely nothing with
the exceptions of pulling back on the yoke and of turning--and too far and
to an incorrect heading. Apparently, according to the rather thorough
reconstruction, he flew the approach with approximately 20 degrees of flaps,
carb heat on and 1700 rpm. Although the tachometer froze showing 900 rpm,
the additional findings and commentary suggested that the power was never
changed from the approach to impact--in other words, in addition to not
removing carb heat and to not retracting the flaps, the student never
throttled up...

All in all, an unusual chain of events. As you said, a lot of small
isolated factors.

Peter

"Peter Dohm" wrote in message
news

"Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote in message
...
Not IMHO a bad idea really. When I was training and flew to controlled
airspace for XC flights it was suggested that I mention I was a student
and
they did seem to slow things down a little.

I can see how a uniform way of doing this might be helpful both in
controlled and uncontrolled airspace. Example, "Bumfigle Tower, Cessna
Student 1234A, ...."

From AVWeb

Britain's Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) is recommending that
student pilots on solo flights be identified by a radio call-sign prefix
so
air traffic controllers can take into account their limited experience
and
knowledge. The recommendation came from the investigation of a crash on
July
19, 2006, that killed a 16-year-old student who had logged 15 hours and
was
on his second solo flight. Just before he touched down at Southend
Airport,
a controller ordered him to turn left and climb to pattern height so an
overtaking Piper Meridian could land. It's believed he did not
reconfigure
the aircraft and apply enough power for the unorthodox go-around and the
Cessna he was flying stalled and crashed a short time later. The
four-person
investigation team concluded pilot Sam Cross was put "in a situation for
which his training and experience had not prepared him" after being
"instructed to carry out an unfamiliar and nonstandard manoeuvre," the
AAIB
report said. Adding to the mix was the fact that Cross was returning to
the
field after just eight minutes in the air because haze was reducing
visibility. His instructor was watching from the ground as the order to
deviate from the runway heading was complied with and he noted the
nose-up
attitude of the Cessna before it stalled and spiralled into a park.
Investigators determined the flaps were at 20 degrees, the carb heat was
on
and the engine was turning at 900 rpm at the time of the crash. Cross was
the youngest pilot ever to be killed in a plane crash in Britain.


In may very well be a good idea and, as several contributors have pointed
out, it is commonly done by both civil and military flight schools.

However, in my none too humble opinion, it has nothing whatsoever to do
with
the cited accident--in which the student pilot's status was presumably
well
known. And, of course, it is phrased as though someone would like to see
it
become a regulation.

(rant temporarily witheld)

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
et...
"Peter Dohm" wrote in message
news

"Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote in message
...
Not IMHO a bad idea really. When I was training and flew to controlled
airspace for XC flights it was suggested that I mention I was a student
and
they did seem to slow things down a little.

I can see how a uniform way of doing this might be helpful both in
controlled and uncontrolled airspace. Example, "Bumfigle Tower, Cessna
Student 1234A, ...."

From AVWeb

Britain's Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) is recommending that
student pilots on solo flights be identified by a radio call-sign prefix
so
air traffic controllers can take into account their limited experience
and
knowledge. The recommendation came from the investigation of a crash on
July
19, 2006, that killed a 16-year-old student who had logged 15 hours and
was
on his second solo flight. Just before he touched down at Southend
Airport,
a controller ordered him to turn left and climb to pattern height so an
overtaking Piper Meridian could land. It's believed he did not
reconfigure
the aircraft and apply enough power for the unorthodox go-around and the
Cessna he was flying stalled and crashed a short time later. The
four-person
investigation team concluded pilot Sam Cross was put "in a situation for
which his training and experience had not prepared him" after being
"instructed to carry out an unfamiliar and nonstandard manoeuvre," the
AAIB
report said. Adding to the mix was the fact that Cross was returning to
the
field after just eight minutes in the air because haze was reducing
visibility. His instructor was watching from the ground as the order to
deviate from the runway heading was complied with and he noted the
nose-up
attitude of the Cessna before it stalled and spiralled into a park.
Investigators determined the flaps were at 20 degrees, the carb heat was
on
and the engine was turning at 900 rpm at the time of the crash. Cross
was
the youngest pilot ever to be killed in a plane crash in Britain.


In may very well be a good idea and, as several contributors have pointed
out, it is commonly done by both civil and military flight schools.

However, in my none too humble opinion, it has nothing whatsoever to do
with
the cited accident--in which the student pilot's status was presumably
well
known. And, of course, it is phrased as though someone would like to see
it
become a regulation.

(rant temporarily witheld)





Well, that wasn't a very useful post, was it?

What I meant to say was that "judgement" training should start early.
Starting out, I added "student pilot" to my call sign. Once I stopped doing
that, I can remember a time when I responded to an odd request with "Unable,
student pilot."

--
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK

What I meant to say was that "judgement" training should start early.
Starting out, I added "student pilot" to my call sign. Once I stopped
doing
that, I can remember a time when I responded to an odd request with
"Unable,
student pilot."

--
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK


I think that all instructors attempt to do that, with varying results; and I
agree that "unable" needs to be part of every pilot's vocabulary. It seems
to be the real-life version of a "pause button" and excessive use indicates
a need for additional training; but it can help in avoiding dangerous
conditions.

Peter

The instructors around here make sure that "unable" is in the students
vocabulary. Controllers will occasionally offer Class B transition to a solo
student. If the student doesn't have a Class B endorsement, which most don't
have, it is up to the student to say "unable".



"Peter Dohm" wrote in message
...

What I meant to say was that "judgement" training should start early.
Starting out, I added "student pilot" to my call sign. Once I stopped
doing
that, I can remember a time when I responded to an odd request with
"Unable,
student pilot."

--
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK


I think that all instructors attempt to do that, with varying results; and
I
agree that "unable" needs to be part of every pilot's vocabulary. It
seems
to be the real-life version of a "pause button" and excessive use
indicates
a need for additional training; but it can help in avoiding dangerous
conditions.

Peter

On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 11:23:16 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder"
wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote:

Not IMHO a bad idea really. When I was training and flew to controlled
airspace for XC flights it was suggested that I mention I was a student and
they did seem to slow things down a little.

I can see how a uniform way of doing this might be helpful both in
controlled and uncontrolled airspace. Example, "Bumfigle Tower, Cessna
Student 1234A, ...."

From AVWeb

Britain's Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) is recommending that
student pilots on solo flights be identified by a radio call-sign prefix so
air traffic controllers can take into account their limited experience and
knowledge. The recommendation came from the investigation of a crash on July
19, 2006, that killed a 16-year-old student who had logged 15 hours and was
on his second solo flight. Just before he touched down at Southend Airport,
a controller ordered him to turn left and climb to pattern height so an
overtaking Piper Meridian could land. It's believed he did not reconfigure
the aircraft and apply enough power for the unorthodox go-around and the
Cessna he was flying stalled and crashed a short time later. The four-person
investigation team concluded pilot Sam Cross was put "in a situation for
which his training and experience had not prepared him" after being
"instructed to carry out an unfamiliar and nonstandard manoeuvre," the AAIB
report said. Adding to the mix was the fact that Cross was returning to the
field after just eight minutes in the air because haze was reducing
visibility. His instructor was watching from the ground as the order to
deviate from the runway heading was complied with and he noted the nose-up
attitude of the Cessna before it stalled and spiralled into a park.
Investigators determined the flaps were at 20 degrees, the carb heat was on
and the engine was turning at 900 rpm at the time of the crash. Cross was
the youngest pilot ever to be killed in a plane crash in Britain.


I hope that someone takes the air traffic controller and the ****** in
the meridian out and beats them senseless.
the kid had the right of way and neither had the right to do what they
did.
it is called a go around folks and every meridian can do one.
the pair of ******* just killed a pilot through combined negligence.
dont let them get away with it.

Stealth Pilot

"Stealth Pilot" wrote in message
...

I hope that someone takes the air traffic controller and the ****** in
the meridian out and beats them senseless.

I looked at this thread very early in the morning (before my coffee) and
read:

"Investigators Say Student Pilots Should Be Flogged"

Maybe the controller should be flogged.