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#51
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Mandating Radios? (WAS: Another midair in the pattern)
On Jan 17, 9:22*am, JJ Sinclair wrote:
*Scott wrote........ Absolutely not. Just a freedom loving American who doesn't need government to grow ever bigger and dictate every aspect of my life. I consider myself to be responsible enough to watch out for myself. Powered planes (modern ones with electrical systems) almost always have radios and they sometimes meet in midair. I think they call these events 'accidents', same as car crashes. Do cars need radios installed so drivers can communicate their every move to each other? If everyone cries to the government to "Please, save us!" they certainly will step up to the task. I'm not looking for a Nanny State... Oh come on Scott, that argument is pathetic. Its like saying cars use head lights to aid in seeing each other at night, but we still have accidents at night, soooooooooooooooo we don't need headlights! No, make that ludicrous! The radio is an aid, it helps to show who is near you especially when trying to take off or land. Many power pilots who reguraly fly near soaring operations will make a call in the blind like......GLUDER GLIDER * * GLIDER * * * *thei is turbo bla bla I'm descending over the pine nuts passing 12,000 any gliders in my area? No government madate told him to do this, he just used is common sense and did it, like he does when entering the pattern.............or how about prior to takeoff? Can you see everyone who may be in the pattern? Wouldn't listening to one of those hated radios be prudent? JJ You gave a perfect example of a MISUSE of the two way radio. Radio calls like "Anybody in the pattern?" Or "Anybody on base or final?" Or, "What runway are you using?" are among the many misuses of the radio............ Cookie |
#52
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Mandating Radios? (WAS: Another midair in the pattern)
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#53
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Mandating Radios? (WAS: Another midair in the pattern)
You gave a perfect example of a MISUSE of the two way radio. Radio calls like "Anybody in the pattern?" *Or "Anybody on base or final?" *Or, "What runway are you *using?" are among the many misuses of the radio............ Cookie- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Any use of the radio that prevents a midair is not in any way misuse. Had the Hawker made this call and got an answer from the 29 he ran into........ JJ |
#54
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Mandating Radios? (WAS: Another midair in the pattern)
On Jan 17, 4:29*pm, JJ Sinclair wrote:
You gave a perfect example of a MISUSE of the two way radio. Radio calls like "Anybody in the pattern?" *Or "Anybody on base or final?" *Or, "What runway are you *using?" are among the many misuses of the radio............ Cookie- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Any use of the radio that prevents a midair is not in any way misuse. Had the Hawker made this call and got an answer from the 29 he ran into........ JJ The radio is an aid, it helps to show who is near you especially when trying to take off or land. Many power pilots who reguraly fly near soaring operations will make a call in the blind like......GLUDER GLIDER GLIDER thei is turbo bla bla I'm descending over the pine nuts passing 12,000 any gliders in my area? No government madate told him to do this, he just used is common sense and did it, like he does when entering the pattern.............or how about prior to takeoff? Can you see everyone who may be in the pattern? Wouldn't listening to one of those hated radios be prudent? JJ JJ, You're heart is in the right place, but..... BTW...I love radios. I install aircraft radios for a living. I use radio in every glider or airplane I fly. I do understand that there are limitations of what two way radio for collision avoidance, however But, if you want to prevent midairs, you have to use the tools correctly and wisely. There are a couple of problems with your radio broadcast above…….. First of all, on which frequency would that power pilot broadcast? CTAF? 123.3? 123.5? Would the gliders in the area be on the frequency on which he broadcast? Maybe the ones in or near the traffic pattern would be on CTAF but the others flying around would most likely not. Now the pilots asks a question, a yes or no question, (this is the improper part)…..He asks, “Any gliders in my area?” Well, what would you expect him to hear in return? “Nope, no gliders”??? Of course not, because if there were no gliders there would be nobody to answer “no!” But what if there were gliders around, but they did not hear the transmission, or they did not answer for any of a bunch of reasons (on a different freq)?.……So now can this pilot assume there are no gliders, because nobody answered his question? Of course not. So the only possible answer to this "yes or no question" is “yes” (So why ask in the first place?) Let’s say somebody does answer……so it goes like this…(Q)”Any gliders in my area?”….(A)”yep”….ok so now what?……It becomes a game of twenty questions… “Where are you?” “No, where are you? Etc.” Now let’s say there are 10 gliders in the area, and five of them answer the radio call, all at the same time!!!! Garble! Let’s say that three answer and 15 don’t……….See nothing useful is gained from this improper radio work! But let’s go back to the beginning………this guy is flying over a glider operation….he knows this because it says so on the sectional, and the facilities directory…….so he already has the answer to the dumb question…….”YES! there are gliders in my area!” (no need to ask on the radio....just assume there are gliders around!) I would be just as dumb to fly around asking, “Are there any jet liners in my area? Or maybe flying over Akron and transmitting, “Any blimps around here?, please advise” So how should it work? Big difference. The pilot should first identify to whom he is talking……. “Joe’s gliderport….. traffic….. Then who he is…. “Beechcraft twin N55BC” Then where he is: “5 miles east, 14000 descending to 12000 Then his intentions: “Transitioning your area, 12,000 westbound” Then shut up and listen and look out the window………….. That’s all there is to it……….. Other aircraft in the area (gliders or airplanes or whatever)….if they hear this transmission, will simply decide if it is a factor or not… If not…they do nothing…..If it is a factor they simply follow up… “Beechcraft 55BC…..this is glider…..4 miles east of Joe’s….. 12,000…..looking for you. Done!….simple to the point….. Cookie So you expect the pilots who fly around in Hawkers to continuously broadcast, "Any gliders in my area?" |
#55
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Mandating Radios? (WAS: Another midair in the pattern)
JJ - She - not he...
Not often we can comment on lady drivers in this sport :-) On 2011/01/17 11:29 PM, JJ Sinclair wrote: You gave a perfect example of a MISUSE of the two way radio. Radio calls like "Anybody in the pattern?" Or "Anybody on base or final?" Or, "What runway are you using?" are among the many misuses of the radio............ Cookie- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Any use of the radio that prevents a midair is not in any way misuse. Had the Hawker made this call and got an answer from the 29 he ran into........ JJ -- Bruce Greeff T59D #1771 & Std Cirrus #57 |
#56
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Mandating Radios? (WAS: Another midair in the pattern)
On Jan 17, 5:08*pm, "
wrote: On Jan 17, 4:29*pm, JJ Sinclair wrote: You gave a perfect example of a MISUSE of the two way radio. Radio calls like "Anybody in the pattern?" *Or "Anybody on base or final?" *Or, "What runway are you *using?" are among the many misuses of the radio............ Cookie- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Any use of the radio that prevents a midair is not in any way misuse. Had the Hawker made this call and got an answer from the 29 he ran into........ JJ The radio is an aid, it helps to show who is near you especially when trying to take off or land. Many power pilots who reguraly fly near soaring operations will make a call in the blind like......GLUDER GLIDER * * GLIDER * * * *thei is turbo bla bla I'm descending over the pine nuts passing 12,000 any gliders in my area? No government madate told him to do this, he just used is common sense and did it, like he does when entering the pattern.............or how about prior to takeoff? Can you see everyone who may be in the pattern? Wouldn't listening to one of those hated radios be prudent? JJ JJ, You're heart is in the right place, but..... BTW...I love radios. * I install aircraft radios for a living. * I use radio in every glider or airplane I fly. *I do understand that there are *limitations of what two way radio for collision avoidance, however But, if you want to prevent midairs, you have to use the tools correctly and wisely. There are a couple of problems with your radio broadcast above…….. First of all, on which frequency would that power pilot broadcast? CTAF? *123.3? *123.5? Would the gliders in the area be on the frequency on which he broadcast? *Maybe the ones in or near the traffic pattern would be on CTAF but the others flying around would most likely not. Now the pilots asks a question, a yes or no question, *(this is the improper part)…..He asks, “Any gliders in my area?” * Well, what would you expect him to hear in return? “Nope, no gliders”??? * Of course not, because if there were no gliders there would be nobody to answer “no!” *But what if there were gliders around, but they did not hear the transmission, or they did not answer for any of a bunch of reasons (on a different freq)?.……So now can this pilot assume there are no gliders, because nobody answered his question? * Of course not. So the only possible answer to this "yes or no question" is “yes” * (So why ask in the first place?) Let’s say somebody does answer……so it goes like this…(Q)”Any gliders in my area?”….(A)”yep”….ok so now what?……It becomes a game of twenty questions… “Where are you?” * “No, where are you? *Etc.” Now let’s say there are 10 gliders in the area, and five of them answer the radio call, all at the same time!!!! * *Garble! Let’s say that three answer and 15 don’t……….See nothing useful is gained from this improper radio work! But let’s go back to the beginning………this guy is flying over a glider operation….he knows this because it says so on the sectional, and the facilities directory…….so he already has the answer to the dumb question…….”YES! *there are gliders in my area!” *(no need to ask on the radio....just assume there are gliders around!) I would be just as dumb to fly around asking, “Are there any jet liners in my area? * Or maybe flying over Akron and transmitting, “Any blimps around here?, please advise” So how should it work? *Big difference. The pilot should first identify to whom he is talking……. “Joe’s gliderport….. traffic….. Then who he is…. “Beechcraft twin N55BC” Then where he is: “5 miles east, 14000 descending to 12000 Then his intentions: “Transitioning your area, 12,000 westbound” Then shut up and listen and look out the window………….. That’s all there is to it……….. Other aircraft in the area (gliders or airplanes or whatever)….if they hear this transmission, will simply decide if it is a factor or not… If not…they do nothing…..If it is a factor they simply follow up… “Beechcraft *55BC…..this is glider…..4 miles east of Joe’s….. 12,000…..looking for you. Done!….simple to the point….. Cookie So you expect the pilots who fly around in Hawkers to continuously broadcast, "Any gliders in my area?" My my, Cookie how you can ramble. The turbo pilot makes that call as he passes east of Minden because he knows thats where we can be found frolicking. He calls on all three freq's. If he hears nothing, does he assume there are no gliders up? Hell no, he keeps his head out of the cockpit, like the gal in the Hawker should have been doing...........actually she did one hell of a good job after the collision, but thats another story. If I hear the call I respond; Glider JJ is at 12K on the ridge just south of Dayton and he replies with no factor or looking. Damned good use of the radio, I say. One can hear a lot of misuse like: Hey Joe, where are you? I'm over here. I don't see you, etc. JJ |
#57
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Mandating Radios? (WAS: Another midair in the pattern)
On Jan 18, 9:02*am, JJ Sinclair wrote:
On Jan 17, 5:08*pm, " wrote: On Jan 17, 4:29*pm, JJ Sinclair wrote: You gave a perfect example of a MISUSE of the two way radio. Radio calls like "Anybody in the pattern?" *Or "Anybody on base or final?" *Or, "What runway are you *using?" are among the many misuses of the radio............ Cookie- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Any use of the radio that prevents a midair is not in any way misuse. Had the Hawker made this call and got an answer from the 29 he ran into........ JJ The radio is an aid, it helps to show who is near you especially when trying to take off or land. Many power pilots who reguraly fly near soaring operations will make a call in the blind like......GLUDER GLIDER * * GLIDER * * * *thei is turbo bla bla I'm descending over the pine nuts passing 12,000 any gliders in my area? No government madate told him to do this, he just used is common sense and did it, like he does when entering the pattern.............or how about prior to takeoff? Can you see everyone who may be in the pattern? Wouldn't listening to one of those hated radios be prudent? JJ JJ, You're heart is in the right place, but..... BTW...I love radios. * I install aircraft radios for a living. * I use radio in every glider or airplane I fly. *I do understand that there are *limitations of what two way radio for collision avoidance, however But, if you want to prevent midairs, you have to use the tools correctly and wisely. There are a couple of problems with your radio broadcast above…….. First of all, on which frequency would that power pilot broadcast? CTAF? *123.3? *123.5? Would the gliders in the area be on the frequency on which he broadcast? *Maybe the ones in or near the traffic pattern would be on CTAF but the others flying around would most likely not. Now the pilots asks a question, a yes or no question, *(this is the improper part)…..He asks, “Any gliders in my area?” * Well, what would you expect him to hear in return? “Nope, no gliders”??? * Of course not, because if there were no gliders there would be nobody to answer “no!” *But what if there were gliders around, but they did not hear the transmission, or they did not answer for any of a bunch of reasons (on a different freq)?.……So now can this pilot assume there are no gliders, because nobody answered his question? * Of course not. So the only possible answer to this "yes or no question" is “yes” * (So why ask in the first place?) Let’s say somebody does answer……so it goes like this…(Q)”Any gliders in my area?”….(A)”yep”….ok so now what?……It becomes a game of twenty questions… “Where are you?” * “No, where are you? *Etc.” Now let’s say there are 10 gliders in the area, and five of them answer the radio call, all at the same time!!!! * *Garble! Let’s say that three answer and 15 don’t……….See nothing useful is gained from this improper radio work! But let’s go back to the beginning………this guy is flying over a glider operation….he knows this because it says so on the sectional, and the facilities directory…….so he already has the answer to the dumb question…….”YES! *there are gliders in my area!” *(no need to ask on the radio....just assume there are gliders around!) I would be just as dumb to fly around asking, “Are there any jet liners in my area? * Or maybe flying over Akron and transmitting, “Any blimps around here?, please advise” So how should it work? *Big difference. The pilot should first identify to whom he is talking……. “Joe’s gliderport….. traffic….. Then who he is…. “Beechcraft twin N55BC” Then where he is: “5 miles east, 14000 descending to 12000 Then his intentions: “Transitioning your area, 12,000 westbound” Then shut up and listen and look out the window………….. That’s all there is to it……….. Other aircraft in the area (gliders or airplanes or whatever)….if they hear this transmission, will simply decide if it is a factor or not… If not…they do nothing…..If it is a factor they simply follow up… “Beechcraft *55BC…..this is glider…..4 miles east of Joe’s…... 12,000…..looking for you. Done!….simple to the point….. Cookie So you expect the pilots who fly around in Hawkers to continuously broadcast, "Any gliders in my area?" My my, Cookie how you can ramble. The turbo pilot makes that call as he passes east of Minden because he knows thats where we can be found frolicking. He calls on all three freq's. If he hears nothing, does he assume there are no gliders up? Hell no, he keeps his head out of the cockpit, like the gal in the Hawker should have been doing...........actually she did one hell of a good job after the collision, but thats another story. If I hear the call I respond; Glider JJ is at 12K on the ridge just south of Dayton and he replies with no factor or looking. Damned good use of the radio, I say. One can hear a lot of misuse like: Hey Joe, where are you? I'm over here. I don't see you, etc. JJ- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - JJ, Three frequencies at the same time? Cookie |
#58
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Mandating Radios? (WAS: Another midair in the pattern)
here's something that I wrote for GBSC students a long time ago.
http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/GB...ent/radio.html Tony |
#59
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Mandating Radios? (WAS: Another midair in the pattern)
On Jan 18, 10:00*am, Tony V wrote:
here's something that I wrote for GBSC students a long time ago.http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/GB...ent/radio.html Tony Nice! You mention that when we make "blind" transmissions that we don't expect an answer........ This is my point about the problem with JJ's scenario...You can't go asking questions on CTAF. Cookie |
#60
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Mandating Radios? (WAS: Another midair in the pattern)
This is my point about the problem with JJ's *scenario...You can't go asking questions on CTAF. Cookie Why not? I have been known to appoint myself the local flight ops officer when several people are trying to land. You are number 3, Sven Vctor, I'm on downwind and Bavo Charlie is on final................there is a tow plane in the area, where are you Blue Tow? The 'proper use' of the radio is not about some imagined users code, its about establishing and maintaining seperation among airport users, some of who can't loiter or go around. JJ |
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