If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#21
|
|||
|
|||
Duo NV lands on Heavenly Ski Resort. Not kidding...
Interesting article relevant to this discussion:
http://www.airfactsjournal.com/2012/...others-keeper/ and a separate video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gWEi...&feature=share JP |
#22
|
|||
|
|||
Duo NV lands on Heavenly Ski Resort. Not kidding...
Hi Evan: I posted to this on a different thread, same topic: The landing
site is about 3.5 miles from TVL at approximately the same altitude. Kingsbury Grade, the passage through the ridge, is roughly three miles farther away (and around the mountain) at something like 1300' above field elevation - and that is being generous. So the relevant question is: a nearly seven mile flight on a bit over 1000' of altitude with a lot of trees on the way. At 13:49 07 February 2012, T8 wrote: On Feb 6, 3:29=A0pm, Bruno wrote: "Outraged..." =A0 As if the pilots wanted to land there. Nice job landing in a tough spot. =A0I am just glad that none of the farmers in any of the fields I have landed in have been, "outraged!" Bruno - B4 Bruno -- Take a look at a chart. Then see if you still think this was a "Nice job." This link should do it http://runwayfinder.com/?loc=3DTVL The top of the ski area in question is at 2:00, about 6 miles from TVL and a few thousand feet higher. The landing site (the bottom of the ski area) is quite close to TVL. The news article mentions a golf course being rejected due to trees. Look where the ski area parking lot, the golf course and TVL are on the satellite view. -Evan Ludeman / T8 |
#23
|
|||
|
|||
Duo NV lands on Heavenly Ski Resort. Not kidding...
Anyone considered that the Duo might have met a localised down draft?
I gather the pilot was too low for comfort, but experience in a given area causes many to continually shave margin. So it is a local flight, well known area, little wind. A perfect setup for being close in on the mountain without big risk. My tiny brain concludes that the only problem with this scenario is that one little bit of rapidly descending air and you are on the ground. So here is an hypothesis. In still wind conditions the air on the surface does not get mixed, so it is in contact with the nice cold snow and gets colder and heavier. At some point a mass of air starts moving downhill - possibly triggered by some skiers. Think of it as a reverse thermal. The air will tend to stay very close to the ground, but will entrain other air. The reports put the Duo very close to the ground. Assume vertical air speed of 500 feet per minute down, if you only have 200 feet gives you seconds to make up your mind - while the situation deteriorates rapidly. Even if you have the height and energy to get away from the immediate terrain, it can put you too low to get over passes, and reach the safer places to land. Possibly in these circumstances one will make apparently incomprehensible decisions. Bruce (just wondering) |
#24
|
|||
|
|||
The article says this was a flight review. A BFR I presume? Therefore the backseat would be a CGI-G.....An experienced front seater and a CFI-G and things still happen such as this. Makes a relatively inexperience type such as much self think twice. Accidents happen, glad no one was hurt but a couple of the comments in the articles indicate a willingness on the part of some to restrict gliding even more in such areas. Something we don't need right now.
Walt |
#25
|
|||
|
|||
Duo NV lands on Heavenly Ski Resort. Not kidding...
Jim,
You're suggesting that they tried to make the KG, failed, plan B was TVL and that also failed? That at least makes a modicum of logical sense out of this. -Evan Ludeman / T8 On Feb 8, 12:10*am, Jim Wallis wrote: Hi Evan: *I posted to this on a different thread, same topic: *The landing site is about 3.5 miles from TVL at approximately the same altitude. Kingsbury Grade, the passage through the ridge, is roughly three miles farther away (and around the mountain) at something like 1300' above field elevation - and that is being generous. So the relevant question is: a nearly seven mile flight on a bit over 1000' of altitude with a lot of trees on the way. At 13:49 07 February 2012, T8 wrote: On Feb 6, 3:29=A0pm, Bruno *wrote: "Outraged..." =A0 As if the pilots wanted to land there. Nice job landing in a tough spot. =A0I am just glad that none of the farmers in any of the fields I have landed in have been, "outraged!" Bruno - B4 Bruno -- Take a look at a chart. *Then see if you still think this was a "Nice job." This link should do ithttp://runwayfinder.com/?loc=3DTVL The top of the ski area in question is at 2:00, about 6 miles from TVL and a few thousand feet higher. *The landing site (the bottom of the ski area) is quite close to TVL. *The news article mentions a golf course being rejected due to trees. *Look where the ski area parking lot, the golf course and TVL are on the satellite view. -Evan Ludeman / T8 |
#26
|
|||
|
|||
Duo NV lands on Heavenly Ski Resort. Not kidding...
The more troubling aspect of this event to me are the reports of
several people that "a glider" had been flying very low relative to the chair lifts for several days before this event. Flying close to terrain is part of the soaring experience but we must remember that doing so in the proximity of people is not good for the sport, nor for the pilots, nor for the people beneath the glider. Guy |
#27
|
|||
|
|||
Duo NV lands on Heavenly Ski Resort. Not kidding...
At 14:36 08 February 2012, guy wrote:
The more troubling aspect of this event to me are the reports of several people that "a glider" had been flying very low relative to the chair lifts for several days before this event. Flying close to terrain is part of the soaring experience but we must remember that doing so in the proximity of people is not good for the sport, nor for the pilots, nor for the people beneath the glider. Guy How things differ. If we had to avoid flying close to people when ridge flying in the UK we would not do any at all. Virtually all the hills worth soaring have people walking along them and gliders very close to them, most of the walkers wave and seem to enjoy the experience. The two largest top of the hill sites in the UK have public footpaths along the ridge line between the airfield and the ridge. |
#28
|
|||
|
|||
Duo NV lands on Heavenly Ski Resort. Not kidding...
On Feb 8, 3:57*pm, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 14:36 08 February 2012, guy wrote: The more troubling aspect of this event to me are the reports of several people that "a glider" had been flying very low relative to the chair lifts for several days before this event. *Flying close to terrain is part of the soaring experience but we must remember that doing so in the proximity of people is not good for the sport, nor for the pilots, nor for the people beneath the glider. Guy How things differ. If we had to avoid flying close to people when ridge flying in the UK we would not do any at all. Virtually all the hills worth soaring have people walking along them and gliders very close to them, most of the walkers wave and seem to enjoy the experience. The two largest top of the hill sites in the UK have public footpaths along the ridge line between the airfield and the ridge. It's the same in the US, of course (common race separated only language, etc.). We do seem to have a few news reporters willing to search for a willing dupe to regurgitate the "quotes" they seek or, failing that, just make the quotes up out of whole cloth. I've taken the time to dig around on the bulletin boards used by hikers in the mountains where I fly to see if gliders get mentioned. We do... and it's all positive. -Evan Ludeman / T8 |
#29
|
|||
|
|||
Duo NV lands on Heavenly Ski Resort. Not kidding...
We will see people hiking on peaks/trails while ridge soaring etc. in the USA, obviously population density is often less than in parts of the UK. However at a ski resort like Heavenly there are potentially thousands of people on the slopes and multiple obstructions including chair lift, gondola and power lines.
AFAIK there are no details of the claimed low flights that occurred days before, except the complaints from the public that were posted as a comment on some news reports. And everybody's idea of what "low" or "close" may vary.. However I agree with Guy. It would be irresponsible for any pilot to push the boundaries of "closeness" over such a populated and potentially hazardous region such as Heavenly Ski resort. Now whether that has really been happening in the past, or was a factor on this flight, and how close etc. I don't think we really know. I have flown that area several times, including ridge soaring further away from the resort, and only in late spring/summer months. As both a Tahoe area skier and a glider pilot (who really does not get to fly this area anymore) I am very dissapointed at the apparent poor judgement that led to landing on this typically busy beginners ski-run, thankful nobody on the ground was injured or killed. I am dismayed why either KTVL airport or the local golf course were not used instead. Darryl |
#30
|
|||
|
|||
Duo NV lands on Heavenly Ski Resort. Not kidding...
We might have to distinguish between;
- Ridge soaring and getting close to the terrain and close to people. and... - Landing on a ski slope and getting close to people. I try to put myself in other people's shoes to get their point of view. While I know that this "Crash" (the reporter's words) was really a landout and under control, I can understand the concern of the uninitiated especially in a crowded sking environment. Watching a glider moving in a straight line along a ridge doing something obviously intentional, is quite a bit different than watching a glider landing in a place that no one on the ground expected. However, I don't believe that the ski resort owner is going to get anywhere demanding that the gliders are banned from ridge soaring his mountain...he doesn't own the air rights...as long as the pilots are following the FAA rules of the game. I can't comment if the pilot could have made it to another field or should have "put it into the trees". I wasn't there. - John |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Duo NV lands on Heavenly Ski Resort. Not kidding... | [email protected] | Soaring | 1 | February 7th 12 07:52 AM |
Duo NV lands on Heavenly Ski Resort. Not kidding... | Mark Jardini[_2_] | Soaring | 0 | February 7th 12 03:51 AM |
Duo NV lands on Heavenly Ski Resort. Not kidding... | Mark Jardini[_2_] | Soaring | 0 | February 7th 12 03:46 AM |
Our experience at Sky Bryce ski resort (video) | John Harlow | Piloting | 1 | February 1st 04 01:57 PM |
Flying to a Ski Resort | Victor | Piloting | 10 | December 29th 03 08:50 PM |