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#121
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Future of Electronics In Aviation
Le Chaud Lapin wrote in
: Hi All, I have noticed that each time this subject is broached, there seem to be many who are perturbed by the idea of electronics/software assuming a primary role (control, stabilization, etc.) in GA aircraft. There are some who believe that electronics and software are sorely underutilized. The electronics that are used are mostly employed in an ancillary role, like providing data to a pilot, etc. There are others who feel that electronics should be fundamentally integral to the design of the aircraft from the start, meaning that any potential opportunity for use of electronics should be employed, as it is almost always the case that digital version of a mechanical, analog part is better on many axes, including weight, cost, reliability, controllability, etc. Ken Tucker mentioned a rotary wing aircraft for his project. I have not specified what type of propulsion mechanism I have in mind for my project. Both of us feel that electronic, fly-by-wire is the future of aviation. What do you think? 1. Do you think that current GA aircraft use not enough electronics? 2. Do you think that current GA aircraft use too much electronics? 3. Do you think electronics should retain a peripheral role ? (Garmin, etc) but not be used in control paths (fly-by-wire)? 4. What role will electronics play in aicraft designed in the year 2108? 5. What will the aircraft look like in 2108? 6. Any other thoughts... -Le Chaud Lapin- Here is an excerpt from a concurrent thread, where the conversation seems to be turning toward Electronics-Or-Not: On Jun 19, 11:16 am, wrote: On Jun 19, 10:40 am, wrote: On Jun 19, 7:26 am, wrote: The notion of first principles, like some of the conservation laws, seems to be lost on Le Chaud and others. He calls himself an engineer, but seems not very familiar with Newton, or concepts like energy density when talking about a prime mover, or. . . but why go on? Austin has its village idiot. Lots of guys like that. The idea that electronics can somehow make an airplane lighter and faster and better, all at once, is just an obsession with electronics and computers. The idea that electric power is green is another falsehood; where does most electricity come from? Hydroelectric dams (devastated valleys), coal (dirty), natural gas (CO2 and an increasingly limited resource), nuclear (dangerous and waste problems), and so on. Hydrogen fuel cells, even if they worked well and were affordable, require hydrogen, which requires the electrolysis of water, which needs vast amounts of electricity. Other methods of storage involve heavy metals and their dangers. The idea that a helicopter is easy to build (with biplane blades, yet, which was tried in the early years of 'copters) just reveals that the writer knows nothing of the problems that gyroscopic precession present to all rotating components of the helicopter, to say nothing of the AOA and airspeed variations of all rotor blades during flight. Helicopter flight is appallingly complex and it's a wonder it happened so soon after fixed-wing flight (35 years or so). Dan Here is a frightening thought. If Le Chaud is in fact an engineer, someone is paying him money for his lack of knowledge of basics, like the power demand to keep a something with a specific gravity greater than its environment suspended there. Well, that may be second term physics. Lift ferries indeed. I wonder how long it would take me to understand his true worth -- I do make mistakes in hiring, but rarely in discharging. What do you care? You don't fly. Bertie |
#122
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Future of Electronics In Aviation
"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in
: Pennino has been hitting on everyone analysing future technology, now below he's gone sexual, **** him, tell him he's fired!!! Where Electro-Mechanical control of air is concerned, we've all used a potentiometer to change the volume of our speaker system...for about 100 years. You may regard a speaker as an exceptionally finely controlled servo/solenoid and is pretty damn reliable and cheap. The computer can be switched off and the pilot has direct analog control, or, instead of farting around with nav, trims etc, he sets, altitude 4000@120 knots, heading 250 into the computer , and he sits back and rests to enjoy the scenerary....and he can even set-up a wake-up call. God you're a fjukktard's fjukktard. Ken PS:Pennino is an annoying wop. Classy. Bertie |
#123
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Future of Electronics In Aviation
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#124
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Future of Electronics In Aviation
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#125
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Future of Electronics In Aviation
In rec.aviation.piloting Le Chaud Lapin wrote:
On Jun 21, 4:15?pm, wrote: Your basic premise is utter nonsense and naive. Gee-whiz components will just drive the cost of flying up, further reducing the pilot population. And don't even bother with you childish blather about "commodities" as the mass market has to exist BEFORE something can become a commodity. Hmm..are you sure? Yes. There are a lot of products that were created on the premise that, even though there is not yet a market present, the market will exist by virtue of the product: * ball-point pen * sticky-notes from 3M * Sony Walkman, Discman * Atari game console * waverunner * Kevlar * Velcro * microwave oven * various medicines and lubricants for psychosexual impotence and frigidity * gasoline additives * mosquito repellant * baby wipes * polarized sunglasses * pet rock (came and went) * USB memory sticks * DVD player The creators of these products speculate that the market might want the product, but the speculation is grounded in reason. And all those products are free compared to the price of an airplane. The most expensive thing on your list of wonders is at least 3 orders of magnitude less in price than an airplane ever could be. You have convinced me of one thing though, you are a childish, naive, idiot. -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. |
#126
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Future of Electronics In Aviation
In rec.aviation.piloting Le Chaud Lapin wrote:
I was merely pointing out that, if a product is made, before anyone knows what it is, they will still buy it if they like it, which obviously can only occur after it has been made and made public. If it is trivially cheap compared to income. And it took years for microwave ovens to become commodity items as opposed to a toy for the well off. Part of the problem with PAV is not that people do not want it, but no one has made anything practical yet. If someone were to make a PAV that satisfied the criteria outlined by NASA/CAFE/PAV, there would be tremenous consumer response. Yeah, the overwhelming sound of "It costs WHAT!!!" and "Are you out of your mind?". -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. |
#127
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Future of Electronics In Aviation
In rec.aviation.piloting Jim Logajan wrote:
wrote: Automatic cars don't exist and there is little likelyhood the will exist anytime in the near future. Um, you may want to start doing a bit of catch-up reading before making any further categorical statements like the above since you appear to be making claims outside your realm of knowledge or expertise. It appears you are probably unaware of current development in this area. Autonomous vehicles are probably in the near future; this is what DARPA's Grand Challenge was intended to accomplish: http://www.darpa.mil/GRANDCHALLENGE/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darpa_grand_challenge I work with Traffic Engineers, state DOT's and FHWA on a regular basis. Automated traffic crap IS my area of expertise. I'm well aware of what is out there and the experimental projects. The statement stands. If you believe it is just around the corner, somewhere I have a Popular Mechanics from the 1930's that says the same thing you might like to read. -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. |
#128
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Future of Electronics In Aviation
Larry Dighera wrote:
On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 19:35:25 -0500, Jim Logajan wrote in : wrote: Automatic cars don't exist and there is little likelyhood the will exist anytime in the near future. Um, you may want to start doing a bit of catch-up reading before making any further categorical statements like the above since you appear to be making claims outside your realm of knowledge or expertise. It appears you are probably unaware of current development in this area. Autonomous vehicles are probably in the near future; this is what DARPA's Grand Challenge was intended to accomplish: http://www.darpa.mil/GRANDCHALLENGE/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darpa_grand_challenge Here's a concept that should be pursued: http://www.tfhrc.gov/pubrds/pr97-12/p32.htm Actual Hands-off Steering: And Other Wonders of the Modern World Yep, it was done then abandoned as being impractical to implement in the real world. It worked real good in a closed and monitored test area if you don't mind spending a fortune. The test area is now a reversible lane just north of San Diego. -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. |
#129
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Future of Electronics In Aviation
On Jun 21, 10:05*pm, wrote:
In rec.aviation.piloting Le Chaud Lapin wrote: On Jun 21, 4:15?pm, wrote: Your basic premise is utter nonsense and naive. Gee-whiz components will just drive the cost of flying up, further reducing the pilot population. And don't even bother with you childish blather about "commodities" as the mass market has to exist BEFORE something can become a commodity. Hmm..are you sure? Yes. There are a lot of products that were created on the premise that, even though there is not yet a market present, the market will exist by virtue of the product: * ball-point pen * sticky-notes from 3M * Sony Walkman, Discman * Atari game console * waverunner * Kevlar * Velcro * microwave oven * various medicines and lubricants for psychosexual impotence and frigidity * gasoline additives * mosquito repellant * baby wipes * polarized sunglasses * pet rock (came and went) * USB memory sticks * DVD player The creators of these products speculate that the market might want the product, but the speculation is grounded in reason. And all those products are free compared to the price of an airplane. The most expensive thing on your list of wonders is at least 3 orders of magnitude less in price than an airplane ever could be. But at least it shows that, if someone builds something that consumers will want, before the consumers know what it is, the consumers will still want it. In case of low-cost PAV, it is already known that the consumers will want it. -Le Chaud Lapin- |
#130
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Future of Electronics In Aviation
On 2008-06-20, Le Chaud Lapin wrote:
Fly by wire is pretty pointless on the kinds of planes we fly, it's adding complexity where none is needed and steel cables and pulleys are pretty reliable in airplanes, and pushrods to the swash plate in a helicopter seem very reliable too. Changing those to electronics would have pretty much zero benefit in a light airplane or helicopter (and some significant disadvantages). I disagree. For XC flights, a computer can do a far better job optimizing fuel efficiency, for example, by controlling control surfaces dynamically during flight. A computer can also minimize the effects of turbulence, by reactively changing the same control surfaces dynamically. But what you're describing is FADEC and autopilots, and they already exist. You still don't need fly by wire; all you've described is a fancy autopilot. I suspect it'll also have rather less effect on turbulence than you expect, or Airbus would have done it. -Le Chaud Lapin- ....in French, meaning 'The sex maniac', literally 'the hot rabbit'. The French have such a way with words! -- From the sunny Isle of Man. Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid. |
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