Is everybody afraid of World Class?

Bruce Hoult wrote in message ...
In article ,
(Todd Smith) wrote:

As a newly licensed glider shopper, I wanted better performance than
the PW-5 would have given me. I bought a used Grob-102 and have had
lots of fun.

A 102? That's a good few steps below a Libelle or Cirrus. In fact, I
think you'd have trouble beating a PW5 most days (in north island NZ
conditions at least). Hell, I remember when I was flying a K6 and a guy
in his G102 asked if I minded if he followed me.

I've only flown with a Libelle for 1 contest and don't really remember
how we compared. A std cirrus seems about equal to the G102 when I've
flown with them. No problem keeping up with a K6 or PW5.

My choice was really just a lucky combination of price, nearby location,
good condition and immediate availability. Any decent glider that had
no damage or other issues would have been fine with me.

Todd Smith
G102 "3S"

And it's sort of a silly question. At the point most soaring
pilots are ready to buy a glider, they're going to buy
a retract, not a fixed gear anyway, I would guess...

That's my whole damn point !!! When it is time for a new pilot
to buy a glider he want's the best he can get for his money.
Todd Smith
Grob 102 "3S"

As is common here, we are now in violent agreement!
I think this is a good argument that the next WC glider
should be allowed to compete as a retract. The AC-4c
is a fine example of a low price, lightweight, short wing,
low insurance rate glider. Maybe just offer a tilt up
canopy, eh?
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

In message ,
writes
On 23 Aug 2004 06:36:44 -0700, (Todd Smith) wrote:


1) good one-design competition ?
NO, it's too damn slow ! and ugly !

Totally ignoring that it is flying ONLY against others of the same
type. It's no uglier than any other plastic ship. They all suck.

Most of us can't afford two reasonable performance modern sailplanes.
So, if you have a PW-5 you will not only be flying it in world class
comps you will be using it for normal club flying. If, when I bought a
glider, I was faced with the choice of something that would get me round
most of the local club comps and cross countries or a glider that
wouldn't but would be ideal for world class comps then I'm afraid the
"get me round most" wins.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a full advocate of the idea of a world single
class but it should be competitive with other sailplanes as most pilots
will be doing that sort of flying.

My question to the PW-5 supporters.

Would YOU buy one ? As the glider YOU flew every good soaring day ?
If you want the class to grow, sell whatever you have and buy a PW-5.

If you can give any rational reason that you want them to disappear,
and the class to die, other than "it's not your thing", it might shed
a little light on the subject. From the many, many threads that have
blasted anything less than 40:1, it's quite obvious why it's not being
a success. In other words, if you're not interested, you are only
joining the small number of high volume bigmouths that wish only to
impress their "standards" on others and have pretty much killed the
class in the process.

I think the real problem is that the current idea behind the world class
is that it is too many things to too many people. The proponents of it
should decide whether they want a machine that can be used for comps or
whether they want a machine for early solos and so on. There is nothing
that says a reasonable performance machine has to be very expensive but
unfortunately it has to compete with the second hand machines that exist
and so if a large number of them are required then this is a barrier to
entry that has to be over come.

My first glider was, and still is come to that, an Astir 77. Not
sparkling performance and it climbs like a lump of concrete compared to,
say, a DG300, however it was cheap, probably cost me 8k ukp when I
bought it. Is a very nice glider to fly and is quite capable (shame I'm
not :-)) of doing a 300k task in UK conditions. This is what any glider
that is being introduced as a cheap, early solo, machine has to compete
with. If I am going to spend, say, 30k ukp I will buy myself something
with a lot of performance as when I can say that I have reached the
limits of my Astir then I can easily use the performance of a DG, Discus
or so on, and second hand high performance ships can be bought for this
sort of money.

Given this I am never going to be in the market for a new glider, unless
I win the lottery, as I am never going to be capable of reaching the
limits of something like a good LS4/6 or a discus 2. So I am always
likely to be in the second hand market and I would venture that this is
true of an awful lot of people.

So, either decide that you want a competition glider - performance and
the like, or a cheap early solo machine and don't mix the two up.

Flame pants on

Robin
--
Robin Birch

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
...
...a simple latch that would keep the
canopy from opening in flight. By "opening", I mean it might allow the
rear edge of the canopy to rise an inch or two, but no more. The usual
latches would still be used to secure it closed.

Sure! You mean like the safety latch on the hood of a car. A good idea,
but it would have to be incorporated into the design of the latch/handle so that
the canopy could be raised in one operation (so as not to trap someone inside
who urgently wants to depart). Again, this dual function would operate just
like the hood latch on many (older) cars! When was the last time you saw an
accident caused by the hood of a car opening accidently?

... I don't think the canopy
needs to be totally self-latching, as a partial latch that keeps the
canopy from flying completely open would be a big improvement. It would
pop up and inch or two during tow, alerting the pilot to the situation
without causing him a problem. He could release and land, or perhaps
simply push it closed after releasing from a normal tow.

I agree.

Vaughn

That's my whole damn point !!! When it is time for a new pilot
to buy a glider he want's the best he can get for his money.
If the the WC was an LS-4 or Discus CS, then I at least would have
had no hesitation in buying one.

No hasitation in buying one??? Take wild guess how much would you have
to spend on newly manufactured Ls-4 or Discus Cs???? There goes your
major DAMN hesitation!!!! Thats why you're flying 20 year old G102 NOT
even used Ls-4 or Discus Cs. Sorry but no glider is worth 80 - 100
thousand, it is truly sad to see one country gaining monopoly on
glider manufacturing and dictating the prices. I'm no fan of Pewee but
making a glider thats going to cost 80 grand a new WC is not going to
make gliding more popular either!

"Bob Kuykendall" wrote in message
om...
The problem as I see it with self-latching canopies on modern
sailplanes has several quite thorny aspects, and I have no intention
of going there.

It may not qualify as a "modern sailplane" but the L-13 has such a latch.
Have you ever heard of an L-13 having a canopy accident? I haven't, (though
someone probably will dredge one up); the G-103 is a different matter!


The key to the problem is the activation impulse required to activate
self engaging latches: the slam.

It is a matter of design and training. First, no slam should be necessary.
The mechanism should be designed so that the canopy always latches with gravity,
so that the canopy will always be latched when closed. An inadvertant slam
could also be damped with padding or mechanical dampers. Furthermore, slams can
(and should) be minimized with training. Every student of mine comes away from
his/her first lesson having heard the "canopy lecture", which includes
instructions to not slam or stress the canopy in any way, to always check that
the canopy is latched when it is closed (particularly if you are going flying),
and to never walk away from an open canopy, and the "checklist lecture" (the
canopy is on the checklist).

As a first experiment, I'd suggest you go buy an ASW-27, remove the
gas spring from the canopy pivot mechanism, and then spam the canopy
closed several hundred times. Please report your findings in this
forum.

Though I respectfully disagree with you that canopy cracks must result from
self-latching mechanisms, how many cracked canopies would it be worth to prevent
an accident like this one below which (as I recall) killed a young girl taking
her first glider ride?

Aircraft: Burkhart Grob G 103C, registration: N103VT
Injuries: 1 Fatal, 1 Serious, 1 Minor.
During takeoff for a glider tow operation, the towplane and the glider both
became airborne. An FAA Inspector witnessed the takeoff and said his attention
was drawn to the 'erratic pitch changes' of the glider. The glider pilot's
canopy was open, and the pilot repeatedly attempted to close the canopy. Pitch
changes and climbs above the tow plane accompanied each attempt to close the
canopy. As the towrope reached a vertical position, the towplane struck the
ground, nosed over, and came to rest inverted. The towrope separated, and the
glider continued past the towplane, rolled left to an inverted position and
impacted the ground.
http://www2.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?...11X11267&key=2



Vaughn





Thanks, and best regards

Bob K.

In article ,
Robin Birch wrote:

My first glider was, and still is come to that, an Astir 77. Not
sparkling performance and it climbs like a lump of concrete compared to,
say, a DG300, however it was cheap, probably cost me 8k ukp when I
bought it. Is a very nice glider to fly and is quite capable (shame I'm
not :-)) of doing a 300k task in UK conditions. This is what any glider
that is being introduced as a cheap, early solo, machine has to compete
with.

UK conditions must be even more ****e than I've been lead to believe if
you can't do a 300k in a PW-5 there. Surely people were (and are) doing
that sort of flight in K6's?

--
Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------

The UK has usually 0-3 absolutely superb days each year (like this year,
1000km in an ASW22, lots of 750's and more, and possible 750 in PW5 or
500+ in a Ka6E, 300km in a K8 - all those have been done at times).
Rarely more than 3 such days and sometimes none in a year.

More frequent days happen when usually 500km in good glass is possible
or 300+ in lower perfomance glass and Ka6E is possible - I doubt if many
years happen with no such days, there are usually maybe 5-10 or more
most years. It is that kind of weather I imagine Robin was talking
about. Weekend only pilots many take several years of trying, however,
before they, the glider availability, and the weather all work out OK at
the same time.

I believe that the emergence of 1:40+ gliders has transformed UK soaring
from a struggle to do long tasks except on the few really good days to a
pattern of lots of days of 300km+ capability. A lot of pilots (I was
one such until very recently) plug on with wood or low performance
glass, either out of financial necessity or stubbornness/enjoying the
challenge. Others find the wherewithal to go to better glass and are
more often able to do long flights. There are also the factors of
spreadout - sometimes the wooden glider simply cannot jump the gaps
between areas with lift; and penetration, when wood/PW5's etc. cannot
complete closed circuit tasks because the into-wind leg is impossible.
(I speak from experience, e.g. 4 outlandings downwind in 5 days flying
in Competition Enterprise this year, because of strong winds all week.
The 6th and last flyable day I did not compete in my Ka6E because of the
wind strength, though a few glass gliders did.)

Chris N.

Eric Greenwell wrote in message ...

On my ASH 26 E, the gas spring and the weight of the canopy supply a
noticeable closing force when the canopy is held open a few inches. I
think this would be plenty to engage a simple latch that would keep the
canopy from opening in flight. By "opening", I mean it might allow the
rear edge of the canopy to rise an inch or two, but no more. The usual
latches would still be used to secure it closed.


I suppose there is a first time for everything and at Parowan I manged
to launch with my P tube trapped under the instrument panel of my
ASW-28. Didn't notice the problem until well out on course so my
options were don't pee, or open the canopy to free it.

I very carefully held the canopy frame on one side and released the
latch on that side. Nothing happened. I then repeated the procedure
on the other side holding on even more strongly. Again nothing
happened. I was very surprised that I had to strongly push up on the
canopy to get it to open the half inch I need to free the P tube. I
was trimmed for about 60kts I think. It may behave differently at
different speeds.


Andy

Andy Durbin wrote:
Eric Greenwell wrote in message ...

On my ASH 26 E, the gas spring and the weight of the canopy supply a
noticeable closing force when the canopy is held open a few inches. I
think this would be plenty to engage a simple latch that would keep the
canopy from opening in flight. By "opening", I mean it might allow the
rear edge of the canopy to rise an inch or two, but no more. The usual
latches would still be used to secure it closed.



I suppose there is a first time for everything and at Parowan I manged
to launch with my P tube trapped under the instrument panel of my
ASW-28. Didn't notice the problem until well out on course so my
options were don't pee, or open the canopy to free it.

I very carefully held the canopy frame on one side and released the
latch on that side. Nothing happened. I then repeated the procedure
on the other side holding on even more strongly. Again nothing
happened. I was very surprised that I had to strongly push up on the
canopy to get it to open the half inch I need to free the P tube. I
was trimmed for about 60kts I think. It may behave differently at
different speeds.

I am curious about how different canopies will react to being unlatched.
The Schleicher design appears to have air pressure holding it down, at
least in the closed position. I don't know what happens if turbulence
were to bounce it up a few inches.

A friend had his DG 400 canopy open in flight, and stay open, so he had
to pull it closed. His headphones and various things flew out of the
cockpit. Fortunately, he was quite high at the time, and dealt with it
successively, but (as I recall) could not retrieve the headphones, so
the cord kept the canopy from latching after he pulled it back down.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA