"Seeking Foreign Buyers For Osprey"

BlackBeard wrote:
On Jun 14, 4:28 am, Vince wrote:
BlackBeard wrote:
On Jun 13, 7:55 pm, Vince wrote:
don't worry these china dolls will be kept very far from any real combat.
Vince
Please clarify "china doll."
As we use the term it applies to the fragility or lack of
survivability of the platform. Are you now insinuating you know
anything about it's combat survivability/susceptibility?
Just wondering, because I know that most details of S/S for this
platform are classified. And I don't remember you being present
during the seven years I was involved with testing those specific
systems.
BB
It will be kept far from anything that might scratch its paint
this turkey is a political airplane.
It has no clear "combat" mission in Iraq

The problems of the V-22 are in its fundamental design. It uses heavy
lift horsepower at ultra heavy cost to pick up medium lift cargo which
must also fit in its small cabin through a rear door.


The entire aft opens up similar to the C-130.



The door doesn't increase the size of the cabin...

IIRC they need a custom vehicle designed to pull any heavy equipment the
Marines might try to use because the cabin is so small..

Is it really only 68 inches wide, and 66.23 inches high?

That certainly counts as a small cabin..

Heck, two fully equipped Marines are going to have some trouble getting
through side by side at the same time... (Equipped with MGs, ATGW, one
shot AT weapons etc...

BlackBeard wrote:
On Jun 14, 10:43 pm, Rob Arndt wrote:
Even stray fire that misses the troops or pilots, but hits a critical
flight system will probably send the Osprey right into the ground.

And this is different from any other aircraft how?


Transitional flight in a combat zone is gonna be a bitch anyway,

As in any troop carrying helicopter...

but
since Iraq is so large, just the regular flight in transit to the
target area or base will expose the rotorcraft to small arms and RPG
fire at low altitude.

Why fly low, it has a higher ceiling than the helo it is meant to
replace, and has more counter-measures and survivability systems than
those helos. So it has a better chance of surviving if hit. If it is
flying low, compare the chances of hitting something going by at 170
knots versus 240+ knots with an RPG. Go ahead and stand off the
highway. Try to hit a VW beetle going by at the speed limit with a
baseball. Then try that with a speeding Lexus going about 80. You
don't get to practice either, they pass once.

The time to hit it will be when it is hovering. Either landing or
lifting off prior to forward transition..

Or when carrying a slung load...

A helicopter can get forward motion almost as soon as it leaves the
ground. How high does the V-22 have to be before entering transition?

And conventional helis can just about land still travelling forward..
Can teh V-22?

BlackBeard wrote:
On Jun 14, 4:28 am, Vince wrote:
BlackBeard wrote:
On Jun 13, 7:55 pm, Vince wrote:
don't worry these china dolls will be kept very far from any real combat.
Vince
Please clarify "china doll."
As we use the term it applies to the fragility or lack of
survivability of the platform. Are you now insinuating you know
anything about it's combat survivability/susceptibility?
Just wondering, because I know that most details of S/S for this
platform are classified. And I don't remember you being present
during the seven years I was involved with testing those specific
systems.
BB
It will be kept far from anything that might scratch its paint
this turkey is a political airplane.
It has no clear "combat" mission in Iraq

The problems of the V-22 are in its fundamental design. It uses heavy
lift horsepower at ultra heavy cost to pick up medium lift cargo which
must also fit in its small cabin through a rear door.


The entire aft opens up similar to the C-130.

BB

you don't have to stoop to enter a C-130
the small cabin is what makes the rear door entry such a problem


"The V-22 cabin comes with many constraints, Burkett explained in a
presentation to an industry conference. Not only is the space limited,
but whatever cargo is loaded in the aircraft must leave enough room for
at least three passengers and for crews to enter and exit unencumbered.
Without any cargo, the Osprey can hold 24 passengers.

The Marines specified that the EFSS — including the mortar, the prime
mover, a load of ammunition and a small crew — must be able to travel
110 nautical miles in the V-22. The weight of any vehicle to be flown on
a V-22 cannot exceed 2,450 pounds per axle. By comparison, a Humvee
weighs 4,500 pounds in the front axle and 6,500 pounds in the rear axle"

http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.o...reys_Cargo.htm


Vince

BlackBeard wrote:
On Jun 14, 10:43 pm, Rob Arndt wrote:
Even stray fire that misses the troops or pilots, but hits a critical
flight system will probably send the Osprey right into the ground.

And this is different from any other aircraft how?


Transitional flight in a combat zone is gonna be a bitch anyway,

As in any troop carrying helicopter...

but
since Iraq is so large, just the regular flight in transit to the
target area or base will expose the rotorcraft to small arms and RPG
fire at low altitude.

Why fly low, it has a higher ceiling than the helo it is meant to
replace, and has more counter-measures and survivability systems than
those helos. So it has a better chance of surviving if hit. If it is
flying low, compare the chances of hitting something going by at 170
knots versus 240+ knots with an RPG. Go ahead and stand off the
highway. Try to hit a VW beetle going by at the speed limit with a
baseball. Then try that with a speeding Lexus going about 80. You
don't get to practice either, they pass once.


OFCS Im a klutz and Ive hit skeet doubles. The angular velocity of
swinging the shotgun is far greater than hitting an osprey at 200 meters

240 knots is about 120 m/sec

2 second flight time

The difference between 170 and 240 knots is trivial


Vince

Kerryn Offord wrote:
BlackBeard wrote:
On Jun 14, 4:28 am, Vince wrote:
BlackBeard wrote:
On Jun 13, 7:55 pm, Vince wrote:
don't worry these china dolls will be kept very far from any real
combat.
Vince
Please clarify "china doll."
As we use the term it applies to the fragility or lack of
survivability of the platform. Are you now insinuating you know
anything about it's combat survivability/susceptibility?
Just wondering, because I know that most details of S/S for this
platform are classified. And I don't remember you being present
during the seven years I was involved with testing those specific
systems.
BB
It will be kept far from anything that might scratch its paint
this turkey is a political airplane.
It has no clear "combat" mission in Iraq

The problems of the V-22 are in its fundamental design. It uses heavy
lift horsepower at ultra heavy cost to pick up medium lift cargo which
must also fit in its small cabin through a rear door.


The entire aft opens up similar to the C-130.



The door doesn't increase the size of the cabin...

IIRC they need a custom vehicle designed to pull any heavy equipment the
Marines might try to use because the cabin is so small..

Is it really only 68 inches wide, and 66.23 inches high?

That certainly counts as a small cabin..

Heck, two fully equipped Marines are going to have some trouble getting
through side by side at the same time... (Equipped with MGs, ATGW, one
shot AT weapons etc...

they have noticed that

Vince

Kerryn Offord wrote:
BlackBeard wrote:
On Jun 14, 10:43 pm, Rob Arndt wrote:
Even stray fire that misses the troops or pilots, but hits a critical
flight system will probably send the Osprey right into the ground.

And this is different from any other aircraft how?


Transitional flight in a combat zone is gonna be a bitch anyway,

As in any troop carrying helicopter...

but
since Iraq is so large, just the regular flight in transit to the
target area or base will expose the rotorcraft to small arms and RPG
fire at low altitude.

Why fly low, it has a higher ceiling than the helo it is meant to
replace, and has more counter-measures and survivability systems than
those helos. So it has a better chance of surviving if hit. If it is
flying low, compare the chances of hitting something going by at 170
knots versus 240+ knots with an RPG. Go ahead and stand off the
highway. Try to hit a VW beetle going by at the speed limit with a
baseball. Then try that with a speeding Lexus going about 80. You
don't get to practice either, they pass once.

The time to hit it will be when it is hovering. Either landing or
lifting off prior to forward transition..

Or when carrying a slung load...

A helicopter can get forward motion almost as soon as it leaves the
ground. How high does the V-22 have to be before entering transition?

And conventional helis can just about land still travelling forward..
Can teh V-22?

The handling of the V 22 would be even marginal except that it is
massively overpowered and overweight for the cargo load it can carry

they use brute horsepower to overcome the inefficiency of the tilt rotor

it lifts about half the load a ch 53 with 12000 hp lifts

Vince

On Jun 14, 11:55?pm, BlackBeard wrote:
On Jun 14, 10:43 pm, Rob Arndt wrote:



Even stray fire that misses the troops or pilots, but hits a critical
flight system will probably send the Osprey right into the ground.

And this is different from any other aircraft how?

First of all it's a rotorcraft and it IS different b/c it is a
complicated transitional flight machine. A main hit to its rotors and
it won't be auto-rotating to safety but burning in a fiery wreckage of
debris.

Transitional flight in a combat zone is gonna be a bitch anyway,

As in any troop carrying helicopter...

Helos don't have to worry about vunerable transitional flight for t/o
nor landings. Osprey has to slow down for transitional landings then
descend vertically down. Helos can come in fast, slow, and still have
some foward momentum when landing. Helos can t/o faster w/o need for
the complicated transitioning part and t/o forward. Osprey has to go
through the transitioning routine every single time and might as well
have a target painted on it as it climbs and descends vertically
before the rotors swing forward, horizontally. Not so with any helo.

but

since Iraq is so large, just the regular flight in transit to the
target area or base will expose the rotorcraft to small arms and RPG
fire at low altitude.

Why fly low, it has a higher ceiling than the helo it is meant to
replace, and has more counter-measures and survivability systems than
those helos. So it has a better chance of surviving if hit. If it is
flying low, compare the chances of hitting something going by at 170
knots versus 240+ knots with an RPG. Go ahead and stand off the
highway. Try to hit a VW beetle going by at the speed limit with a
baseball. Then try that with a speeding Lexus going about 80. You
don't get to practice either, they pass once.

It NEEDS more countermeasures and suvival aids as this is an exposed
twin-engine transitional rotorcraft. Helos have their engines buried
and are covered by armor. Osprey has a 50 ft wingspan with exposed
transitional engines in nacelles at their tips. One does not need to
take out the engine to kill it- just blow a wing off and the engine is
gone too- end of flight. As for speed, the Osprey has to slow for the
transition and even briefly hover in the process which is bad news for
the 24 troops being transported in that sitting duck. Also, in forward
flight the rotor diameter is 38 ft, a tempting target for an RPG as it
slows to come in and land. Helos have none of these problems and have
some measure of armor protection with the engines.

BB

I guess everybody has some mountain to climb.
It's just fate whether you live in Kansas or Tibet...

Rob

In article ,
Kerryn Offord wrote:

BlackBeard wrote:

A helicopter can get forward motion almost as soon as it leaves the
ground. How high does the V-22 have to be before entering transition?

And conventional helis can just about land still travelling forward..
Can teh V-22?

Haven't been around V-22 flight ops, but the XV-15 used to fly around
Moffett Field near my old office, and it certainly could land while
still traveling forward, just not with the nacelle's full-forward.

It could also move forward before lifting off the runway; it didn't have
to reach some arbitrary altitude before it could begin to transition to
forward flight.

Vince wrote:

they have noticed that

What they should have noticed is how that side-by-side rotor layout
causes sand and dust to rise around the fuselage during landing,
blinding the pilot.
That problem should have been noticed back in the XV-15 days:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_XV-15

Pat

Vince wrote:

The handling of the V 22 would be even marginal except that it is
massively overpowered and overweight for the cargo load it can carry

they use brute horsepower to overcome the inefficiency of the tilt rotor

it lifts about half the load a ch 53 with 12000 hp lifts

Could be worse...could be this:
http://www.vstol.org/wheel/VSTOLWheel/KamovKa-22.htm
That didn't look right, and it didn't fly right either.

Pat