Garmin GPS 20A with Trig TT22 in Experimental Glider - OK?

Hi,

I'm gaining knowledge in ADS-B over the years. But I can't say I'm an
expert. I could use some feedback from some of the extremely knowledgeable
people that monitor this group.

I sell Trig TT22 transponders - which are FAA approved for ADS-B when used
with an approved GPS source. But currently approved GPS units are $3500+.
I have been hoping that a much lower cost GPS unit "designed to meet the
requirements..." would become available in the future - making it possible
to have FAA approved ADS-B out that meets the requirements for 2020.

This week a customer pointed out a solution - I think. It is the Garmin GPS
20A. It sells for $845. That is still a lot of money for a WAAS GPS, but
it is a lot better than $3500. I believe the antenna is extra.
https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/in-t...rod525504.html

The web site says that it is approved for ADS-B out in LSAs. It is not
clear to me whether it would be legal to use it with a TT22 in an
experimental, or non-experimental sailplane.

I believe that ADS-B will make our flying much more safe. I am angry that
the FAA requires $3500+ GPS units at this time. They are reducing safety.

I'm not trying to push ADS-B down the throats of anyone. I am just trying
to fill a need. Many gliders already have TT22 units and might consider
adding an $845 GPS, but not a $3500+ GPS unit.

Also, it is my understanding that "field approvals" are required when
installing ADS-B out systems in certificated aircraft. Would there be a lot
of expensive paperwork necessary to get FAA approval for a system that
includes a TT22 and Garmin GPS 20A?

Any thoughts?

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

On Wednesday, December 16, 2015 at 12:25:30 AM UTC-5, Paul Remde wrote:
Hi,

I'm gaining knowledge in ADS-B over the years. But I can't say I'm an
expert. I could use some feedback from some of the extremely knowledgeable
people that monitor this group.

I sell Trig TT22 transponders - which are FAA approved for ADS-B when used
with an approved GPS source. But currently approved GPS units are $3500+.
I have been hoping that a much lower cost GPS unit "designed to meet the
requirements..." would become available in the future - making it possible
to have FAA approved ADS-B out that meets the requirements for 2020.

This week a customer pointed out a solution - I think. It is the Garmin GPS
20A. It sells for $845. That is still a lot of money for a WAAS GPS, but
it is a lot better than $3500. I believe the antenna is extra.
https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/in-t...rod525504.html

The web site says that it is approved for ADS-B out in LSAs. It is not
clear to me whether it would be legal to use it with a TT22 in an
experimental, or non-experimental sailplane.

I believe that ADS-B will make our flying much more safe. I am angry that
the FAA requires $3500+ GPS units at this time. They are reducing safety.

I'm not trying to push ADS-B down the throats of anyone. I am just trying
to fill a need. Many gliders already have TT22 units and might consider
adding an $845 GPS, but not a $3500+ GPS unit.

Also, it is my understanding that "field approvals" are required when
installing ADS-B out systems in certificated aircraft. Would there be a lot
of expensive paperwork necessary to get FAA approval for a system that
includes a TT22 and Garmin GPS 20A?

Any thoughts?

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

Please read the FAA ADS-B installation guidance.

https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/ga/media...stallation.pdf

Dynon offers $590 ADS-B GPS source

On Tuesday, December 15, 2015 at 9:25:30 PM UTC-8, Paul Remde wrote:
Hi,

I'm gaining knowledge in ADS-B over the years. But I can't say I'm an
expert. I could use some feedback from some of the extremely knowledgeable
people that monitor this group.

I sell Trig TT22 transponders - which are FAA approved for ADS-B when used
with an approved GPS source. But currently approved GPS units are $3500+.
I have been hoping that a much lower cost GPS unit "designed to meet the
requirements..." would become available in the future - making it possible
to have FAA approved ADS-B out that meets the requirements for 2020.

This week a customer pointed out a solution - I think. It is the Garmin GPS
20A. It sells for $845. That is still a lot of money for a WAAS GPS, but
it is a lot better than $3500. I believe the antenna is extra.
https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/in-t...rod525504.html

The web site says that it is approved for ADS-B out in LSAs. It is not
clear to me whether it would be legal to use it with a TT22 in an
experimental, or non-experimental sailplane.

I believe that ADS-B will make our flying much more safe. I am angry that
the FAA requires $3500+ GPS units at this time. They are reducing safety.

I'm not trying to push ADS-B down the throats of anyone. I am just trying
to fill a need. Many gliders already have TT22 units and might consider
adding an $845 GPS, but not a $3500+ GPS unit.

Also, it is my understanding that "field approvals" are required when
installing ADS-B out systems in certificated aircraft. Would there be a lot
of expensive paperwork necessary to get FAA approval for a system that
includes a TT22 and Garmin GPS 20A?

Any thoughts?

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

Too bad the GPS engine in a Flarm cannot be used for ADS-B coupled with the transponder with ADS-B capability.

On Tuesday, December 15, 2015 at 9:25:30 PM UTC-8, Paul Remde wrote:
Hi,

I'm gaining knowledge in ADS-B over the years. But I can't say I'm an
expert. I could use some feedback from some of the extremely knowledgeable
people that monitor this group.

I sell Trig TT22 transponders - which are FAA approved for ADS-B when used
with an approved GPS source. But currently approved GPS units are $3500+.
I have been hoping that a much lower cost GPS unit "designed to meet the
requirements..." would become available in the future - making it possible
to have FAA approved ADS-B out that meets the requirements for 2020.

This week a customer pointed out a solution - I think. It is the Garmin GPS
20A. It sells for $845. That is still a lot of money for a WAAS GPS, but
it is a lot better than $3500. I believe the antenna is extra.
https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/in-t...rod525504.html

The web site says that it is approved for ADS-B out in LSAs. It is not
clear to me whether it would be legal to use it with a TT22 in an
experimental, or non-experimental sailplane.

I believe that ADS-B will make our flying much more safe. I am angry that
the FAA requires $3500+ GPS units at this time. They are reducing safety.

I'm not trying to push ADS-B down the throats of anyone. I am just trying
to fill a need. Many gliders already have TT22 units and might consider
adding an $845 GPS, but not a $3500+ GPS unit.

Also, it is my understanding that "field approvals" are required when
installing ADS-B out systems in certificated aircraft. Would there be a lot
of expensive paperwork necessary to get FAA approval for a system that
includes a TT22 and Garmin GPS 20A?

Any thoughts?

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

Hi Jonathan,

The Dynon offering looks interesting, but their web site states that it can
only be used with their systems.

"Can the SV-GPS-2020 be used with non Dynon transponders / ADS-B Out
devices?
No other ADS-B Out devices are known to currently support the SV-GPS-2020's
format. Dynon Avionics currently only supports SkyView and AF-5000
installations. The SV-GPS-2020 transmits RS-232 NMEA output (115,200 baud)
with additional integrity information."

Paul Remde
____________________________

"Jonathan St. Cloud" wrote in message
...

Dynon offers $590 ADS-B GPS source

On Tuesday, December 15, 2015 at 9:25:30 PM UTC-8, Paul Remde wrote:
Hi,

I'm gaining knowledge in ADS-B over the years. But I can't say I'm an
expert. I could use some feedback from some of the extremely
knowledgeable
people that monitor this group.

I sell Trig TT22 transponders - which are FAA approved for ADS-B when used
with an approved GPS source. But currently approved GPS units are $3500+.
I have been hoping that a much lower cost GPS unit "designed to meet the
requirements..." would become available in the future - making it possible
to have FAA approved ADS-B out that meets the requirements for 2020.

This week a customer pointed out a solution - I think. It is the Garmin
GPS
20A. It sells for $845. That is still a lot of money for a WAAS GPS, but
it is a lot better than $3500. I believe the antenna is extra.
https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/in-t...rod525504.html

The web site says that it is approved for ADS-B out in LSAs. It is not
clear to me whether it would be legal to use it with a TT22 in an
experimental, or non-experimental sailplane.

I believe that ADS-B will make our flying much more safe. I am angry that
the FAA requires $3500+ GPS units at this time. They are reducing safety.

I'm not trying to push ADS-B down the throats of anyone. I am just trying
to fill a need. Many gliders already have TT22 units and might consider
adding an $845 GPS, but not a $3500+ GPS unit.

Also, it is my understanding that "field approvals" are required when
installing ADS-B out systems in certificated aircraft. Would there be a
lot
of expensive paperwork necessary to get FAA approval for a system that
includes a TT22 and Garmin GPS 20A?

Any thoughts?

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

The Freeflight system is just a repackaged Trig 22 transponder. There is a ranger 1201 on Vansairforce for $1200. Some EAA folks have said that the Dynon Skyview has trig T22 in it.

Stephen Damon wrote on 12/16/2015 6:16 PM:
The Freeflight system is just a repackaged Trig 22 transponder. There
is a ranger 1201 on Vansairforce for $1200. Some EAA folks have said
that the Dynon Skyview has trig T22 in it.

I have a Skyview system in my Phoenix LSA, and it does use custom Trig
T22 (or T21 - buyers choice). Skyview is for Experimental or LSA
aircraft, not certified; also, no glider pilot wants a Skyview system in
it - big physicall, big expense, and big power usage for little advantage.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"

https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/...anes-2014A.pdf
uy

I just wanted to give Paul a shout out for the extra research that he did on my behalf on this topic. It seems that there is no reasonable solution yet for us. That Garmin box is too expensive as they fail to point out that you also need to buy a $300+ antenna, which is just ridiculous. I emailed Trig and they rather coyly suggested that they would have a non TSO'd gps for use with the TT22 in the not too distant future. I'm going to wait it out a little longer. So unbelievably stupid that the FAA thinks that roughly knowing where a plane is ("roughly" being within about 10 feet most of the time) is inferior to having no freaking idea whatsoever. Utterly idiotic. Flying out of Harris Hill is ridiculously frustrating s we continually see power planes on autopilot or with pilots too confused on their instruments come way too close. I really wish I could upgrade my TT22 to ADSB out at a reasonable cost.

Why is it that the GPS from Flarm unit cannot be used? That seems perfect as we would get more Flarms in gliders and obviously they are accurate.


On Thursday, December 17, 2015 at 7:36:38 AM UTC-8, Andrew Ainslie wrote:
I just wanted to give Paul a shout out for the extra research that he did on my behalf on this topic. It seems that there is no reasonable solution yet for us. That Garmin box is too expensive as they fail to point out that you also need to buy a $300+ antenna, which is just ridiculous. I emailed Trig and they rather coyly suggested that they would have a non TSO'd gps for use with the TT22 in the not too distant future. I'm going to wait it out a little longer. So unbelievably stupid that the FAA thinks that roughly knowing where a plane is ("roughly" being within about 10 feet most of the time) is inferior to having no freaking idea whatsoever. Utterly idiotic. Flying out of Harris Hill is ridiculously frustrating s we continually see power planes on autopilot or with pilots too confused on their instruments come way too close. I really wish I could upgrade my TT22 to ADSB out at a reasonable cost.

On Thursday, December 17, 2015 at 11:23:00 AM UTC-5, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
Why is it that the GPS from Flarm unit cannot be used? That seems perfect as we would get more Flarms in gliders and obviously they are accurate.


I believe because the GPS is not "TSO'd", meaning nobody has spent a ton of money getting it approved.
It may be even better (in performance & features) than an approved unit, it just does not have "the little stamp" that is a FAA blessing.

Along the lines of, "Speed is money, how fast do you want to go?", the FAA version is, "Legal is money, how legal do you want to be?".

I know there is a voltage regulator for our Super Cub that comes from a ~50's vintage Chevy for ~$40, the "FAA approved part" is a few hundred.
But it has the "little stamp".