The F-102 Delta Dagger (Was GWB as a Nat'l Guard Fighter Pilot threads.)

OK. I have seen the debate over GWB as an F-102 pilot, so I was wondering
about a couple of things.

First, was the F-102 taken out of service in the early 1970s? I have to ask
because as a kid I remember the Guard around here flying F-106s up to around
1990 or 1991 or so, and they were closely related to the F-102. Though I
recall them being (much) faster. Mach 1.8 vs. Mach 2.32 IIRC.

Second, if GWB was trained on the F-102, and had asked about other planes,
would he have been assigned to the -106 or was Texas going to a different
fighter? The program wher Guard piolts were flying in Vietnam was mentioned,
and the USAF turning him down because the USAF was phasing out the -102. I
guess the time needed to retrain the guy on another type would have
prohibited him making the cutoff date? Makes sense, though, and the USAF
forces in the area could have been phasing out the -102 (which was more
suited as a bomber interceptor for CONUS defense than dogfighting) earlier
than counterparts in the US or Europe.

Third. did the F-102 have a gun or just internal missiles in a weapon bay?
The F-106, as I recall, carried Falcon missiles (Or GENIEs*) and later had a
20mm Vulcan cannon installed as well.

Fourth, the F-102 and F-106 just look cool. Had to say that. Good designs,
and you can see the evolution in fuselage flow in the later design. (Though
the previous one had those cool mini-cones at the tail.)


DEP

*There was a massive "Was GENIE a rocket or a missile" debate on another
group, which I won't get into here. I think the verdict was a rocket, which
it was, guided missile or not.

OK. I have seen the debate over GWB as an F-102 pilot, so I was wondering
about a couple of things.

First, was the F-102 taken out of service in the early 1970s?

Yes....the Duece as it was called in Air Force circles was phased out of
most National Guard units in the early 70's. I recall the Pennsylvania
National Guard replacing them with A7 Corsairs while in Texas they were
replaced with F101 VooDoos.

Second, if GWB was trained on the F-102, and had asked about other planes,
would he have been assigned to the -106 or was Texas going to a different
fighter?

The Texas Guard transitioned to the F101 Voodoo which they flew till the
early 80's when they moved to the F4 and now they fly F16's

"David E. Powell" wrote in message
s.com...
OK. I have seen the debate over GWB as an F-102 pilot, so I was wondering
about a couple of things.

First, was the F-102 taken out of service in the early 1970s?

The last one left ANG service in 1976, though they had finsished their
operational role in 1975.

I have to ask
because as a kid I remember the Guard around here flying F-106s up to
around
1990 or 1991 or so, and they were closely related to the F-102. Though I
recall them being (much) faster. Mach 1.8 vs. Mach 2.32 IIRC.

Second, if GWB was trained on the F-102, and had asked about other planes,
would he have been assigned to the -106 or was Texas going to a different
fighter?

You don't normally "ask" about other planes, you fly the aircraft assigned
to your unit. As another poster has mentioned, his unit transitioned to the
F-101.

The program wher Guard piolts were flying in Vietnam was mentioned,
and the USAF turning him down because the USAF was phasing out the -102.

No, the reason he was not accepted was that they had plenty of more
experienced F-102 pilots available at that time, and they were taking the
most experienced volunteers. A couple of years after this, the situation had
apparently changed, and an ANG F-102 pilot (2LT type) from Palace Alert flew
the last F-102 intercept of a Bear out of Iceland. Palace Alert was not
limited to sending F-102 pilots to Vietnam or Thailand--it provided pilots
to various F-102 operating locations.

I
guess the time needed to retrain the guy on another type would have
prohibited him making the cutoff date? Makes sense, though, and the USAF
forces in the area could have been phasing out the -102 (which was more
suited as a bomber interceptor for CONUS defense than dogfighting) earlier
than counterparts in the US or Europe.

Third. did the F-102 have a gun or just internal missiles in a weapon bay?

No gun, just internal mounted Falcon AAM's and a few 2.75 inch unguided
FFAR's in tubes withing the weapons bay doors.

The F-106, as I recall, carried Falcon missiles (Or GENIEs*) and later had
a
20mm Vulcan cannon installed as well.

Yep.

Brooks


Fourth, the F-102 and F-106 just look cool. Had to say that. Good designs,
and you can see the evolution in fuselage flow in the later design.
(Though
the previous one had those cool mini-cones at the tail.)


DEP

*There was a massive "Was GENIE a rocket or a missile" debate on another
group, which I won't get into here. I think the verdict was a rocket,
which
it was, guided missile or not.

"David E. Powell" wrote in message
s.com...
OK. I have seen the debate over GWB as an F-102 pilot, so I was wondering
about a couple of things.

First, was the F-102 taken out of service in the early 1970s? I have to
ask
because as a kid I remember the Guard around here flying F-106s up to
around
1990 or 1991 or so, and they were closely related to the F-102. Though I
recall them being (much) faster. Mach 1.8 vs. Mach 2.32 IIRC.

HANG (Hawaii) flew 102 until 1977 (last unit as best I can find out). Now
the be TOTALLY correct Deuce was flown much longer than that as drone.

The Six was faster due to the fact that F-106 had engine with more thrust
(J75 vice J57). Not sure, but don't think Deuce had variable inlet either
(open to correction)


Second, if GWB was trained on the F-102, and had asked about other planes,
would he have been assigned to the -106 or was Texas going to a different
fighter? The program wher Guard piolts were flying in Vietnam was
mentioned,
and the USAF turning him down because the USAF was phasing out the -102. I
guess the time needed to retrain the guy on another type would have
prohibited him making the cutoff date? Makes sense, though, and the USAF
forces in the area could have been phasing out the -102 (which was more
suited as a bomber interceptor for CONUS defense than dogfighting) earlier
than counterparts in the US or Europe.

Good source on F-102 ops both CONUS and PACAF...

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f102_2.html

Shows 111th FIS (TANG) operated F-102 from 1960 - 1975 (as mentioned
transitioned to 101)

Interesting to note that PACAF had Deuce in service up to 70/71 at Okinawa
and Clark

.....


DEP

*There was a massive "Was GENIE a rocket or a missile" debate on another
group, which I won't get into here. I think the verdict was a rocket,
which
it was, guided missile or not.


Not to restart this but.... GENIE was NOT guided (basically a bullet). Good
in that it could not be jammed with ECM or decoyed with flares. (ECM could
impact AI radar in interceptor of course). Genie was one of the more
difficult to employ due to fact pilot had to be VERY precise in "steering
the dot" and get in proper firing solution.

Mark

Shows 111th FIS (TANG) operated F-102 from 1960 - 1975 (as mentioned
transitioned to 101)


Actually the 111th flew both F-102s and F-101s from 1969 until 1976. During
that time period the unit was responible for both Deuce and VooDoo training.
When the deuce was phased out, the 111th continued with the F-101B until 1982.
I cover that on my website.


http://angelfire.lycos.com/dc/jinxx1/images/TEXANG.html

CB

"Jinxx1" wrote in message
...
Shows 111th FIS (TANG) operated F-102 from 1960 - 1975 (as mentioned
transitioned to 101)


Actually the 111th flew both F-102s and F-101s from 1969 until 1976.
During
that time period the unit was responible for both Deuce and VooDoo
training.
When the deuce was phased out, the 111th continued with the F-101B until
1982.
I cover that on my website.

Sounds a bit early for first arrival of the Voodoo;

"1971 saw the arrival of the McDonnell Douglas F-101B Voodoo to the 147th
FIG. The F-101 did not replace the F-102 it was just an addition to the role
of combat crew training. Now the 147th was tasked with training of aircrews
in the F-102 and F-101. 1974 saw the end of the Delta Dagger's days at
Ellington; the "Texans" would now solely operate the F-101."
www.fencecheck.com/articles/base_visits/ article_01_07_2004_lance_pawlik.php

"On 6 May 1971 the unit received F-101F fighter interceptors and became the
training center for all Air Guard interceptors. In August 1974, after 14
years of service, the unit's F-102s were retired, but the unit maintained a
full fleet of F-101s." www.houstonaviationalliance.com/
meeting02/05/ang_info.html

That latter source seems to have the best info on the unit's history; it
agrees with that found on the TXANG official website,
http://www.agd.state.tx.us/main/air/airindexframe.htm .

There was an overlap in flying the F-102 and F-101, but that did not occur
until mid-1971 (I'd suspect they did not actually strat doing any F-101
training operations until maybe 72, since it would take some time to spin up
the unit on the "newer" aircraft.

Brooks


http://angelfire.lycos.com/dc/jinxx1/images/TEXANG.html

CB

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 13:43:56 GMT, "Mark T. Evert"
wrote:

The Texas Guard transitioned to the F101 Voodoo

What year was this?



all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...

What year was this?


The 111th FIS flew the F-102A from 1960 to 1975 and the F-101B from 1971 to
1981. Both fighters were used in the Combat Crew Training School run by the
unit from 1970 to 1976.

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 16:03:28 GMT, "Mark" wrote:


"David E. Powell" wrote in message
ws.com...
OK. I have seen the debate over GWB as an F-102 pilot, so I was wondering
about a couple of things.

First, was the F-102 taken out of service in the early 1970s? I have to
ask
because as a kid I remember the Guard around here flying F-106s up to
around
1990 or 1991 or so, and they were closely related to the F-102. Though I
recall them being (much) faster. Mach 1.8 vs. Mach 2.32 IIRC.

HANG (Hawaii) flew 102 until 1977 (last unit as best I can find out). Now
the be TOTALLY correct Deuce was flown much longer than that as drone.

The Six was faster due to the fact that F-106 had engine with more thrust
(J75 vice J57). Not sure, but don't think Deuce had variable inlet either
(open to correction)

The six also had an area-ruled fuse, that is significant for a +mach bird.

Al MInyard

"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 16:03:28 GMT, "Mark"
wrote:


"David E. Powell" wrote in message
ws.com...
OK. I have seen the debate over GWB as an F-102 pilot, so I was
wondering
about a couple of things.

First, was the F-102 taken out of service in the early 1970s? I have to
ask
because as a kid I remember the Guard around here flying F-106s up to
around
1990 or 1991 or so, and they were closely related to the F-102. Though
I
recall them being (much) faster. Mach 1.8 vs. Mach 2.32 IIRC.

HANG (Hawaii) flew 102 until 1977 (last unit as best I can find out).
Now
the be TOTALLY correct Deuce was flown much longer than that as drone.

The Six was faster due to the fact that F-106 had engine with more thrust
(J75 vice J57). Not sure, but don't think Deuce had variable inlet
either
(open to correction)

The six also had an area-ruled fuse, that is significant for a +mach bird.

Actually, Al, the 102 used area rule--the lack of area rule resulted in the
first protype YF-102 being firmly subsonic. Redesign to incorporate area
rule yielded the F-102A, which was our first supersonic interceptor.

Brooks


Al MInyard