Use of FLaps in emergency situations

wrote in message
...
A simple reality check is to simply pull back the
throttle close to idle passing the numbers downwind when you're number
one to land and getting used to the sight picture that'll get you to
the runway.

Where I fly (KLNA) that is too often simply impossible. When you have
multiple planes in the pattern, the pattern tends to get bigger...much bigger.
I often fly at odd hours just so that I can practice things like you suggest,
but it is a skill that may do me little good if I am routinely forced to turn
final more than a mile from the airport.

I was first a glider pilot. One of the first things we learn/teach in
gliders is that you never want to get caught simultaneously low and downwind of
the field. When I started taking airplane lessons, I was amazed to find that
everyone was routinely flying patterns that were beyond gliding range of the
airport. I am not just talking about the turn from base to final, I mean the
much of the downwind leg and the entire base leg!

Vaughn

On Jul 15, 12:48*pm, "Vaughn Simon"
wrote:
wrote in message

...

A simple reality check is to simply pull back the
throttle close to idle passing the numbers downwind when you're number
one to land and getting used to the sight picture that'll get you to
the runway.

* *Where I fly (KLNA) that is too often simply impossible. *When you have
multiple planes in the pattern, the pattern tends to get bigger...much bigger.
I often fly at odd hours just so that I can practice things like you suggest,
but it is a skill that may do me little good if I am routinely forced to turn
final more than a mile from the airport.

* *I was first a glider pilot. *One of the first things we learn/teach in
gliders is that you never want to get caught simultaneously low and downwind of
the field. *When I started taking airplane lessons, I was amazed to find that
everyone was routinely flying patterns that were beyond gliding range of the
airport. *I am not just talking about the turn from base to final, I mean the
much of the downwind leg and the entire base leg!

Vaughn

We are told, Vaughn, that engine failures sometimes happen when power
is first reduced after take off. I don't know what the statistics are,
but think failures in the downwind/base/final portions of flight are
not very common. My own SEL experience and practice would put me at
serious risk if they were common, I'd make the field only if the
failure happened inbound of the middle marker a lot of times. I need
power to stay on the glide slope. That 'chop the power and make the
field" probably has more to do with learning how to figure out what
you can glide to if you have a power failure sometime. It might be
worth doing something like that when you're near a not-so-busy field,
just to make sure the sight picture you think you know works is valid
and if you still remember how to manage the energy your airplane has
left.

I'm reminding myself I have not done that sort of thing in too long a
time.

On Jul 15, 12:09 pm, wrote:
We are told, Vaughn, that engine failures sometimes happen when power
is first reduced after take off. I don't know what the statistics are,
but think failures in the downwind/base/final portions of flight are
not very common.

Failures at power reduction are no more common than any other
sort, except perhaps in ultralights with their two-strokes that tend
to seize up if they're not fully warmed up before takeoff, and they'll
sometimes stop when power is reduced but they were going to quit soon
anyway.
Failures can happen anywhere. I've had an engine fail in the
glide and another busted its crankshaft on climbout. Most common
failures, by a wide margin, are attributed to carb ice, and it will
get you anywhere at all if you're not educated enough to be aware of
(A) what causes it, (B) when the risk is highest, (C) and what is
sounds like. Every so often I hear of another airplane that had its
engine quit, the conditions were perfect for carb ice, and the engine
ran fine for the accident investigators. Carb ice could cause engine
failure on power reduction, as the ice will be closing off the carb
throat and the closing throttle valve will finish it. Maybe that's
where the OWT comes from?
Next most common cause is fuel starvation, more commonly called
running out of gas or, sometimes, mismanaging tanks. Water in the fuel
is third, then practice forced landings (when the thing iced up or got
cold enough it didn't wake up for the overshoot), and the fifth is oil
starvation. Not very common, that one. Catastrophic mechanical failure
is rare (like the broken crank) and is usually found in airplanes that
are poorly maintained or maybe abused.

Dan

"Vaughn Simon" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
A simple reality check is to simply pull back the
throttle close to idle passing the numbers downwind when you're number
one to land and getting used to the sight picture that'll get you to
the runway.

Where I fly (KLNA) that is too often simply impossible. When you have
multiple planes in the pattern, the pattern tends to get bigger...much
bigger. I often fly at odd hours just so that I can practice things like
you suggest, but it is a skill that may do me little good if I am
routinely forced to turn final more than a mile from the airport.

When the circuit is full of students making xc circuits and dragging in long
finals,
We all (should) know that it is improper to cut in front of another aircraft
in the circuit and also that controllers will seldom direct one aircraft to
turn inside of another in the circuit, however......

The code words for requesting this action are to 'request a simulated engine
failure exercise' when making your downwind call abeam of the runway. The
controllers are well aware of what you are trying to do and will often
accommodate this if they are able and have confidence in your ability to
execute. If they are unable they will just decline your request and you are
free to make it again on your next circuit. A little planning and
situational awareness on your part can place you in the correct position to
allow the controller to approve your request.

The alternative is to land for 1/2 hr to get out of sequence with the flight
schools and to make your circuits while they are between air time.

Happy landings,


I was first a glider pilot. One of the first things we learn/teach in
gliders is that you never want to get caught simultaneously low and
downwind of the field. When I started taking airplane lessons, I was
amazed to find that everyone was routinely flying patterns that were
beyond gliding range of the airport. I am not just talking about the turn
from base to final, I mean the much of the downwind leg and the entire
base leg!

Vaughn

snip
* *Where I fly (KLNA) that is too often simply impossible. *When you have
multiple planes in the pattern, the pattern tends to get bigger...much bigger.
I often fly at odd hours just so that I can practice things like you suggest,
but it is a skill that may do me little good if I am routinely forced to turn
final more than a mile from the airport.

* *I was first a glider pilot. *One of the first things we learn/teach in
gliders is that you never want to get caught simultaneously low and downwind of
the field. *When I started taking airplane lessons, I was amazed to find that
everyone was routinely flying patterns that were beyond gliding range of the
airport. *I am not just talking about the turn from base to final, I mean the
much of the downwind leg and the entire base leg!

Vaughn

True due to traffic you may have to fly beyond gliding distance of the
airport. The mistake I typically see when this happens is that the
pilot will start descending abeam the numbers. . Then they end up at
500 feet and a mile from the airport. I teach to stay at pattern
altitude until you are in a position to make a normal descent to the
runway. At least this way if you have a power failure you have a 1000
feet to work with, Which is the altitude we usually where we practice
power failures from.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

I think the basic Idea behind you question is in #1 is should you
retract the flaps to try to extend your glide. The answer is it
depends mostly on how high you are. Below about 400 feet don't mess
with them. You will not gain enough to be significant and you should
be concentraiting on flying the airplane. Above 400 feet retracting
them can have some benefit, The higher you are the more it will help.
As I recall in the 172 going from 30 to 20 would give a signficant
drag reduction. From 20 to 10 does not do much and from 10 to 0 does
even less.

Best answer is find a willing flight instructor and go out and try it.
I do scenerio's like these all the time with students and on flight
reviews.

For Senerio #2, If landing ahead is no longer an option then get the
airplane configured as close to the Vx configuration and speed as
possible. I don't recall what flap setting this is for the R model 172
as I recall some 172's recommend 10 degrees of flaps and other say
that the 10 degrees doesn't help over an obstacle. I would be inclined
not to mess with them as long as they were 10 degrees or less.


Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:32:42 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Jul 15, 12:09 pm, wrote:
We are told, Vaughn, that engine failures sometimes happen when power
is first reduced after take off. I don't know what the statistics are,
but think failures in the downwind/base/final portions of flight are
not very common.

Failures at power reduction are no more common than any other
sort, except perhaps in ultralights with their two-strokes that tend
to seize up if they're not fully warmed up before takeoff, and they'll
sometimes stop when power is reduced but they were going to quit soon
anyway.
Failures can happen anywhere. I've had an engine fail in the
glide and another busted its crankshaft on climbout. Most common
failures, by a wide margin, are attributed to carb ice, and it will
get you anywhere at all if you're not educated enough to be aware of
(A) what causes it, (B) when the risk is highest, (C) and what is
sounds like. Every so often I hear of another airplane that had its
engine quit, the conditions were perfect for carb ice, and the engine
ran fine for the accident investigators. Carb ice could cause engine
failure on power reduction, as the ice will be closing off the carb
throat and the closing throttle valve will finish it. Maybe that's
where the OWT comes from?
Next most common cause is fuel starvation, more commonly called
running out of gas or, sometimes, mismanaging tanks. Water in the fuel
is third, then practice forced landings (when the thing iced up or got
cold enough it didn't wake up for the overshoot), and the fifth is oil
starvation. Not very common, that one. Catastrophic mechanical failure
is rare (like the broken crank) and is usually found in airplanes that
are poorly maintained or maybe abused.

Dan

no I think the boy is right. your problem is that you've flown
correctly adjusted carburettors all the time.

if the idle metering of the carby isnt setup correctly then changes in
power settings can move the mixture out of the combustible range.

dont ask me how I know this but my old carby is now back on the
aircraft after being refurbished.

Stealth Pilot