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#51
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"Seeking Foreign Buyers For Osprey"
On Jun 15, 4:58?pm, Walt wrote:
On Jun 15, 2:55?am, BlackBeard wrote: On Jun 14, 10:43 pm, Rob Arndt wrote: Even stray fire that misses the troops or pilots, but hits a critical flight system will probably send the Osprey right into the ground. And this is different from any other aircraft how? Transitional flight in a combat zone is gonna be a bitch anyway, As in any troop carrying helicopter... but since Iraq is so large, just the regular flight in transit to the target area or base will expose the rotorcraft to small arms and RPG fire at low altitude. Why fly low, it has a higher ceiling than the helo it is meant to replace, and has more counter-measures and survivability systems than those helos. So it has a better chance of surviving if hit. If it is flying low, compare the chances of hitting something going by at 170 knots versus 240+ knots with an RPG. The escorts (still some form of a Cobra) can't operate where the V-22 operates. It can't be efficiently escorted. It's the worst boondoggle ever invented. Walt- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Why is there any need to post all the inherent dangers of the V-22 when common sense tells us that transitional flight in a combat zone is just begging to be shot down. That would not be so bad if it were just pilots but each V-22 will have 24 troops. THAT is a disaster and even the insurgents are waiting to shoot the first one down- you know, they read the newspapers too and know it is coming! First one downed will be a great propaganda victory and the thought of 24 mangled bodies being dragged through some dirt road in Iraq is appalling. You say that the German convetiplane Fa-269 and Weserflug P.1003 tilt- rotor would not have worked for the Germans in WW2 in combat, so why do you now think that the V-22 is any different? Technology doesn't mean **** in a vunerable transitional flight machine. The Iraqi insurgents will sit on the rooftops with AKs, AKMs, and RPGs to blast the rotorcraft as soon as it slows to hover while in transition for landing. Higher up, it is a target for missiles and it cannot autorotate safely if at all. US troops are ****ed and the number 22 seems more unlucky than 13. We have the highly dangerous V-22 and moneypit useless F/A-22 which will never replace all the a/c it was intended to. 20 years from now the US will still be fighting with a/c from the 70s-80s or older like the B-52. But then again theri will always eb flag-waving morons who will believe in myths like: - the Glock 17 is invisible to airport X-ray machines- its all plastic and undetectable (it has a metal barrel, magazine, and other parts and its silhouette is still totally visble to X-ray machines) - the F-117 is invisible and will never be shot down (it was never invisible and was shot down) - the Apache is the world's premiere attach helo able to withstand any firepower the Soviets/Russians can throw at it on the battlefield (I guess they failed to test it with AKs and RPGs) - the M-1 tank is the best in the world and is invincible (that's why 20 have been lost in ODS and OIF, with 2 taking missile shots up the ass) - when the Stryker arrives, it will kick ass (it was shot to **** and removed to more secure locations) - no one can touch the US, we are the lone Superpower (September 11, 2001) - ad infinitum, ad nauseum Rob - |
#52
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"Seeking Foreign Buyers For Osprey"
Dan wrote:
Vince wrote: Dan wrote: Pat Flannery wrote: Vince wrote: The handling of the V 22 would be even marginal except that it is massively overpowered and overweight for the cargo load it can carry they use brute horsepower to overcome the inefficiency of the tilt rotor it lifts about half the load a ch 53 with 12000 hp lifts Could be worse...could be this: http://www.vstol.org/wheel/VSTOLWheel/KamovKa-22.htm That didn't look right, and it didn't fly right either. Pat Interesting layout. I assume the rotors would be used in autorotation during horizontal flight. If this were done full time it wouldn't be able to take off vertically, but would make one big autogyro. Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired the v-22 cannot safely auto rotate snip Vince, once yet again you are way off mark. I was responding to Flannery's link to a Soviet aircraft not V-22. Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired the thread is about the osprey feel free to rename your thread Vince |
#53
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"Seeking Foreign Buyers For Osprey"
Vince wrote:
Kerryn Offord wrote: BlackBeard wrote: On Jun 14, 4:28 am, Vince wrote: BlackBeard wrote: On Jun 13, 7:55 pm, Vince wrote: don't worry these china dolls will be kept very far from any real combat. Vince Please clarify "china doll." As we use the term it applies to the fragility or lack of survivability of the platform. Are you now insinuating you know anything about it's combat survivability/susceptibility? Just wondering, because I know that most details of S/S for this platform are classified. And I don't remember you being present during the seven years I was involved with testing those specific systems. BB It will be kept far from anything that might scratch its paint this turkey is a political airplane. It has no clear "combat" mission in Iraq The problems of the V-22 are in its fundamental design. It uses heavy lift horsepower at ultra heavy cost to pick up medium lift cargo which must also fit in its small cabin through a rear door. The entire aft opens up similar to the C-130. The door doesn't increase the size of the cabin... IIRC they need a custom vehicle designed to pull any heavy equipment the Marines might try to use because the cabin is so small.. Is it really only 68 inches wide, and 66.23 inches high? That certainly counts as a small cabin.. Heck, two fully equipped Marines are going to have some trouble getting through side by side at the same time... (Equipped with MGs, ATGW, one shot AT weapons etc... they have noticed that Vince Is it really that bad? I realize they have to bend over to "walk" out (66.23 inches high is below average height), but can they walk side by side or do they have to depart single file? |
#54
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"Seeking Foreign Buyers For Osprey"
Peter Skelton wrote:
On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 09:27:40 -0400, Vince wrote: SNIP "The V-22 cabin comes with many constraints, Burkett explained in a presentation to an industry conference. Not only is the space limited, but whatever cargo is loaded in the aircraft must leave enough room for at least three passengers and for crews to enter and exit unencumbered. Without any cargo, the Osprey can hold 24 passengers. The Marines specified that the EFSS — including the mortar, the prime mover, a load of ammunition and a small crew — must be able to travel 110 nautical miles in the V-22. The weight of any vehicle to be flown on a V-22 cannot exceed 2,450 pounds per axle. By comparison, a Humvee weighs 4,500 pounds in the front axle and 6,500 pounds in the rear axle" http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.o...reys_Cargo.htm That's the most heavily armoured version of the hummer. The base version is 5200 lb GVW with a 2500 lb payload. Of course it's 86" wide, so it won't fit anyway. But even 5200 lbs 50-50 split is 2600 lb per axle empty.. That's over the magic 2450 lb mark.. |
#55
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"Seeking Foreign Buyers For Osprey"
On Sat, 16 Jun 2007 14:09:30 +1200, Kerryn Offord
wrote: Peter Skelton wrote: On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 09:27:40 -0400, Vince wrote: SNIP "The V-22 cabin comes with many constraints, Burkett explained in a presentation to an industry conference. Not only is the space limited, but whatever cargo is loaded in the aircraft must leave enough room for at least three passengers and for crews to enter and exit unencumbered. Without any cargo, the Osprey can hold 24 passengers. The Marines specified that the EFSS — including the mortar, the prime mover, a load of ammunition and a small crew — must be able to travel 110 nautical miles in the V-22. The weight of any vehicle to be flown on a V-22 cannot exceed 2,450 pounds per axle. By comparison, a Humvee weighs 4,500 pounds in the front axle and 6,500 pounds in the rear axle" http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.o...reys_Cargo.htm That's the most heavily armoured version of the hummer. The base version is 5200 lb GVW with a 2500 lb payload. Of course it's 86" wide, so it won't fit anyway. But even 5200 lbs 50-50 split is 2600 lb per axle empty.. That's over the magic 2450 lb mark.. When it's forced through the door, enough bits fall off for it to make weight. Peter Skelton |
#56
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"Seeking Foreign Buyers For Osprey"
Kerryn Offord wrote:
Vince wrote: Kerryn Offord wrote: BlackBeard wrote: On Jun 14, 4:28 am, Vince wrote: BlackBeard wrote: On Jun 13, 7:55 pm, Vince wrote: don't worry these china dolls will be kept very far from any real combat. Vince Please clarify "china doll." As we use the term it applies to the fragility or lack of survivability of the platform. Are you now insinuating you know anything about it's combat survivability/susceptibility? Just wondering, because I know that most details of S/S for this platform are classified. And I don't remember you being present during the seven years I was involved with testing those specific systems. BB It will be kept far from anything that might scratch its paint this turkey is a political airplane. It has no clear "combat" mission in Iraq The problems of the V-22 are in its fundamental design. It uses heavy lift horsepower at ultra heavy cost to pick up medium lift cargo which must also fit in its small cabin through a rear door. The entire aft opens up similar to the C-130. The door doesn't increase the size of the cabin... IIRC they need a custom vehicle designed to pull any heavy equipment the Marines might try to use because the cabin is so small.. Is it really only 68 inches wide, and 66.23 inches high? That certainly counts as a small cabin.. Heck, two fully equipped Marines are going to have some trouble getting through side by side at the same time... (Equipped with MGs, ATGW, one shot AT weapons etc... they have noticed that Vince Is it really that bad? I realize they have to bend over to "walk" out (66.23 inches high is below average height), but can they walk side by side or do they have to depart single file? a Marine I talked to said that in combat gear with helmets on it's a sort of alternating single file crouch walk from the seat to the door. its tighter than single file but you have to avoid getting entangled. Vince |
#57
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"Seeking Foreign Buyers For Osprey"
On Jun 16, 8:10 am, Vince wrote:
Kerryn Offord wrote: Vince wrote: Kerryn Offord wrote: BlackBeard wrote: On Jun 14, 4:28 am, Vince wrote: BlackBeard wrote: On Jun 13, 7:55 pm, Vince wrote: don't worry these china dolls will be kept very far from any real combat. Vince Please clarify "china doll." As we use the term it applies to the fragility or lack of survivability of the platform. Are you now insinuating you know anything about it's combat survivability/susceptibility? Just wondering, because I know that most details of S/S for this platform are classified. And I don't remember you being present during the seven years I was involved with testing those specific systems. BB It will be kept far from anything that might scratch its paint this turkey is a political airplane. It has no clear "combat" mission in Iraq The problems of the V-22 are in its fundamental design. It uses heavy lift horsepower at ultra heavy cost to pick up medium lift cargo which must also fit in its small cabin through a rear door. The entire aft opens up similar to the C-130. The door doesn't increase the size of the cabin... IIRC they need a custom vehicle designed to pull any heavy equipment the Marines might try to use because the cabin is so small.. Is it really only 68 inches wide, and 66.23 inches high? That certainly counts as a small cabin.. Heck, two fully equipped Marines are going to have some trouble getting through side by side at the same time... (Equipped with MGs, ATGW, one shot AT weapons etc... they have noticed that Vince Is it really that bad? I realize they have to bend over to "walk" out (66.23 inches high is below average height), but can they walk side by side or do they have to depart single file? a Marine I talked to said that in combat gear with helmets on it's a sort of alternating single file crouch walk from the seat to the door. its tighter than single file but you have to avoid getting entangled. Vince The bad guys don't even have to use automatic fire, maybe we could get the Marines to go back and forth like those bears at the carnival. |
#58
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"Seeking Foreign Buyers For Osprey"
Vince wrote: BlackBeard wrote: On Jun 15, 11:47 am, Pat Flannery wrote: Vince wrote: they have noticed that What they should have noticed is how that side-by-side rotor layout causes sand and dust to rise around the fuselage during landing, blinding the pilot. This differs from any other rotary wing craft how? very very high disk loading with yaw effects 6. HIGH DOWNWASH VELOCITY Because of the high disk-loading of V-22, the downwash velocity is about twice that of any conventional helicopter, and because of the side-by-side placement of the prop-rotors there are two distinct downwash wakes that are transverse to the flight direction. This has several operational implications that bear on safety issues. The most critical one, I believe, is the effects of downwash on landings at night in a desert environment – a challenge in any helicopter, but more difficult, and potentially dangerous, in the V-22. http://www.g2mil.com/V-22safety.htm In something like the Chinook, the twin rotor down wash causes the and dust to rise along the center of the fuselage sides, not over the cockpit area. Pat |
#59
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"Seeking Foreign Buyers For Osprey"
Dan wrote: Interesting layout. I assume the rotors would be used in autorotation during horizontal flight. If this were done full time it wouldn't be able to take off vertically, but would make one big autogyro. That was the idea, if forward flight lift would shared between the windmilling rotors and the wings but the prototype crashed, and they gave up on it. We tried the same concept in a lot smaller form on the McDonnell XV-1: https://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aer...donnel_xv1.htm The one I keep trying to find a photo of on the web is the Yak VVP-6 design for a huge helicopter using six rotors (three mounted one behind the other on three stub wings on each side of the fuselage), and carried a six missile SA-2 battery on its back along with the associated radars, and more reload missiles inside its fuselage. This monster was to be powered by no less than a total of 24 turboshaft engines, pylon mounted in two dual pods on each of its six stub wings. The giant helicopter was designed to work in conjunction with S/VTOL fighters and attack aircraft by letting a mobile missile site to be deployed to front line positions quickly. After the work on the Yak S/VTOL aircraft ceased, it was canceled before any prototype had been built. Pat |
#60
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"Seeking Foreign Buyers For Osprey"
Pat Flannery wrote:
Vince wrote: BlackBeard wrote: On Jun 15, 11:47 am, Pat Flannery wrote: Vince wrote: they have noticed that What they should have noticed is how that side-by-side rotor layout causes sand and dust to rise around the fuselage during landing, blinding the pilot. This differs from any other rotary wing craft how? very very high disk loading with yaw effects 6. HIGH DOWNWASH VELOCITY Because of the high disk-loading of V-22, the downwash velocity is about twice that of any conventional helicopter, and because of the side-by-side placement of the prop-rotors there are two distinct downwash wakes that are transverse to the flight direction. This has several operational implications that bear on safety issues. The most critical one, I believe, is the effects of downwash on landings at night in a desert environment – a challenge in any helicopter, but more difficult, and potentially dangerous, in the V-22. http://www.g2mil.com/V-22safety.htm In something like the Chinook, the twin rotor down wash causes the and dust to rise along the center of the fuselage sides, not over the cockpit area. 'Taint so, Pat - The CH-47, and pretty much all tandem-rotor helicopters since the H-21, have overlapping rotors. Downwash over the center of the fuselage is very high, due to the 2 sets of rotor wash adding to reach other. What you get with a 'Hook hovering over dust, sand, or water is an incredible amount of crud blown around for quite some distance - there's a good image here at: http://www.rdecom.army.mil/rdemagazi...ASCARtech.html -- Pete Stickney Without data, all you have is an opinion |
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