US Air Force survival gun?

From: Cub Driver
Date: 4/23/2004 3:27 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 19:11:54 -0400, "Bruce W.1"
wrote:

I'd really like to know because I'm looking for a survival gun to take
into the woods while backpacking. It must be as light in weight as
possible.

Wasn't this the Armalite survival gun?

As I recall (vaguely: a friend bought one to kyak through the Arctic
Circle) it had an over-under barrel, with a .22 bullet and a 410
shotgun shell. It packed into its own stock.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

From: Cub Driver


On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 19:11:54 -0400, "Bruce W.1"
wrote:

I'd really like to know because I'm looking for a survival gun to take
into the woods while backpacking. It must be as light in weight as
possible.

Wasn't this the Armalite survival gun?

As I recall (vaguely: a friend bought one to kyak through the Arctic
Circle) it had an over-under barrel, with a .22 bullet and a 410
shotgun shell. It packed into its own stock.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

You have two firearms mixed up. The Armalite AR-7 is the one that takes apart
and stores in its own stock. Mine is made by Charter arms and is in 22LR. If
memory serves the current maker is Henry.

James Bond used one in Goldfinger (I think)

The other one is the M-6 scout which had a .410 over a 22 hornet and folded in
half. The current maker is Springfield.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Are you certain of that? I've read quite consistently that
the black bear is really very slow to attack a human, even
when it has cubs. Attacks are extremely rare.

We have black bears in southern New Hampshire. Perhaps one sighting a
year in this college town. To the best of my knowledge, no one has
ever been attacked by a bear in the past century.

Of course, if you go kidnapping bear cubs ...


Yes black bears are not aggressive animals, usually when there has been a bear
attack, its been not because of a bear problem, but a problem with humans
leaving out food or being in close proximity to a bear and her cub.

Many times I have encountered black bears, and have chased them out of
campsites. Unless they have been habituated to the point where they equate
humans and food nearby (not eating humans, but eating human food), they will
typically run away when they encounter someone.

On that note, the only time I have been charged by a black bear, was when I
encounted a black bear and her cub. The cub was curious and wanted to check me
out, while the mom was not too big on that idea, and tried to chase me away.

In order to add military aviation content, there was B-24 wreckage on a nearby
mountain...


Ron
Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)
Silver City Tanker Base

"B2431" wrote in message
...
From: "Ragnar"


Rules for hiking in bear country:

1. ALWAYS bring a friend.
2. ALWAYS carry a .22LR pistol. NOTE: don't tell friend you have a
gun.
3. When charged by a bear, shoot friend in leg.
4. RUN. You can't outrun a bear, but you can outrun your friend.

The only drawback is next time you go camping You will have a harder time
taking a friend. I suggest taking a lawyer, draft dodger or child
molester.No
jury would convict you.

Good suggestion. The only drawback is that I might not even need to see a
bear in order to shoot them.

On 22 Apr 2004 23:35:05 -0700, (robert arndt) wrote:

Alan Minyard wrote in message . ..
On 21 Apr 2004 22:47:01 -0700, (robert arndt) wrote:

Alan Minyard wrote in message . ..
On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 19:11:54 -0400, "Bruce W.1" wrote:

The US Air Force used to put a gun in their pilot survival packs, the
M-6 Scout. See: http://www.milesfortis.com/church/akc13.htm

Does anyone know what the Air Force uses today?

I'd really like to know because I'm looking for a survival gun to take
into the woods while backpacking. It must be as light in weight as
possible.

Thanks for your help.

Kel-Tech makes a nice 9mm or 40S&W (your choice) folding carbine.
I would guess that it weights about three pounds (unloaded).

Al Minyard

What pieces of crap. In WW2 Luftwaffe air crews had the incredible
Sauer Drilling that featured two shotgun barrels and a .375 mag rifle
combined. Add to that the 27mm Leuchtpistole that also fired grenades,
flares, sounding rounds, and Luftminen. Now that's firepower and
utility!
The US by comparison postwar had that ugly, ****ty M-6 scrap metal
survival gun and now they carry either compact 9s/40s/45s/or various
M-16 compact rifles depending on the crews and mission.
You would think they would do better than that.

Rob

The Sauer drilling had a 9.3X74R rifle barrel, not a .357 Magnum.

The 9.3mmX74mmR cartridge was equivalent in POWER to a .375 H&H
Magnum- ask any gun expert.

They have similar power levels, but the 9.3X74R is NOT a 375 Mag. Try
firing a 9.3X74R round in a 357 Mag, but stand very, very far away.

It also
weighed about 15 pounds and could not be carried in aircraft other
than bombers. It was wooden stocked, commercially built, desperation
weapon issued to bomber crews on the Eastern front.

Which was superbly made and quite effective in stopping enemy
personnel and light armor.

And was a terrible survival weapon.

Was it a nice drilling, sure.

Krieghoff still makes outstanding Drillings for $2-5K!

Was it an effective survival weapon?

Not really, but it came in handy on the Russian front for killing.

Not by any stretch of the imagination. It was way too heavy, would
not fit in a survival kit, used ammunition unique in the German military,
etc. No one in their right mind would consider it any sort of military
weapon, much less a "survival" gun. Of course Goering was not in
his right mind :-)

Al Minyard

Rob

Al Minyard

Mary Shafer wrote in
:

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 13:42:52 -0400, Stephen Harding
wrote:

Mary Shafer wrote:

The closest I've ever come to being attacked by a wild animal is being
nipped by a rock hyrax on Table Mountain, though. Hyraxes are the
closest living relatives of elephants, not that you'd guess that by
looking at either of them. Although now that I think about elephants,
there was that one bull elephant who seriously considered charging our
vehicle in Samburu (or was it Masai Mara?) a few years ago.

Hyraxes? Elephants? Phaah!

Ever been to Rocky Mountain Nat'l Park in Colorado?

Yes, I have been. Pretty, isn't it?

That's the site of my only "wildlife attack". A vicious and highly
aggressive pack of ground squirrels! The little buggers would come
right up under the picnic table at the campsite, and nip at your
toes.

Stellar jays in Yosemite are equally aggressive, taking food right out
of your hand. My father, who spent a fair amount of time in the
mountains of Utah and Colorado, always called jays camp robbers, as
they would take anything not nailed down (and at least try to take the
rest). I don't recall any direct attacks, though.

Mary


Blue Springs Park in central Florida;a swimmer was attacked by a rabid
otter.Park is now closed to swimmers until they kill all the other otters.
(they all live in a communal burrow,and most likely have rabies,too.)

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net

(B2431) wrote in
:

From: Cub Driver


On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 19:11:54 -0400, "Bruce W.1"
wrote:

I'd really like to know because I'm looking for a survival gun to
take into the woods while backpacking. It must be as light in weight
as possible.

Wasn't this the Armalite survival gun?

As I recall (vaguely: a friend bought one to kyak through the Arctic
Circle) it had an over-under barrel, with a .22 bullet and a 410
shotgun shell. It packed into its own stock.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

You have two firearms mixed up. The Armalite AR-7 is the one that
takes apart and stores in its own stock. Mine is made by Charter arms
and is in 22LR. If memory serves the current maker is Henry.

James Bond used one in Goldfinger (I think)



many people over in rec.guns claim that the Henry AR-7 is plagued with jams
and failure-to-feeds.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net

"Ron" wrote in message
...
Are you certain of that? I've read quite consistently that
the black bear is really very slow to attack a human, even
when it has cubs. Attacks are extremely rare.

We have black bears in southern New Hampshire. Perhaps one sighting a
year in this college town. To the best of my knowledge, no one has
ever been attacked by a bear in the past century.

Of course, if you go kidnapping bear cubs ...


Yes black bears are not aggressive animals, usually when there has been a
bear
attack, its been not because of a bear problem, but a problem with humans
leaving out food or being in close proximity to a bear and her cub.

Many times I have encountered black bears, and have chased them out of
campsites. Unless they have been habituated to the point where they
equate
humans and food nearby (not eating humans, but eating human food), they
will
typically run away when they encounter someone.

On that note, the only time I have been charged by a black bear, was when
I
encounted a black bear and her cub. The cub was curious and wanted to
check me
out, while the mom was not too big on that idea, and tried to chase me
away.

You folks need to update your bear knowledge. Yes, black bears have indeed
accounted for fatalities (read as multiple, not singular) here in the US,
and the last two I read about (one on CO, the other in NM) had *nothing* to
do with either camping or cubs, but instead were people attacked *inside
their homes* (a few hundred pounds of bear apparently not being strongly
challenged by either door or window). And from what I gather yes, the number
of black bear attacks is greater than the number of grizzly attacks; as I
said before, that is to be expected, given their much greater population and
dispersion, and their propensity to lose their natural fear of man when
exposed to folks like the average idiot who can't grasp the importance of
not feeding the critters in our parks, etc. Other commonly held bear beliefs
that are now being questioned are the utility of the "play dead" defense
against a grizzly attack and the usefulness of those idiotic "bear bells"
that some hikers wear. And yes, I too have encountered black bears, and have
yet to have a problem with any of them--but I sure as heck am not going to
underestimate their potential of being a hazard, either. Given that in BC,
which has both blacks and grizzlies, the black has accounted for both more
attacks and more fatalities, dismissing them as being an insignificant
threat would appear to be foolish.

Brooks


In order to add military aviation content, there was B-24 wreckage on a
nearby
mountain...


Ron
Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)
Silver City Tanker Base

From: Jim Yanik


(B2431) wrote in
:

snip

The Armalite AR-7 is the one that
takes apart and stores in its own stock. Mine is made by Charter arms
and is in 22LR. If memory serves the current maker is Henry.

James Bond used one in Goldfinger (I think)



many people over in rec.guns claim that the Henry AR-7 is plagued with jams
and failure-to-feeds.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net

The only problem I have with my Charter Arms AR-7 is the charging handle can
drop out and is easily lost while disassembly. I was hoping Henry's AR-7s were
as good as Charter Arm's.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

"John Keeney" wrote:
"Harry Andreas" wrote:
(SteveM8597) wrote:

I have carried a firearm a time or two while backpacking in grizzly country but
not in state and national parks where they are illegal. I hear the situation
in some of the CA parks is pretty bad, though. Not what I would consider a
survival situation, just common sense.

Best bet for bear and cougar defense is actually pepper spray, although I've
also carried a .357, especially when hiking with kids.

A .357 is great for shooting at your neighbor. It might be okay
for a cougar, though your chances of killing the kids is great
too. (Though a snub nosed .357 that you shoot into the air to
make noise might well be more effective than trying to shoot at
the animal with something that might kill it or the kids.)

I've lately been thinking hard about an Alaska trip and noted
bear gun recommendations from the National Park Service.
Here's what they have posted in one spot (note that guns
can't be carried in *some* of Alaska's national parks):

What you have quoted is *extremely* good advice.

"If you are inexperienced with a firearm in emergency situations, you are
more likely to be injured by a gun than a bear. It is illegal to carry
firearms in some of Alaska's national parks, so check before you go.

A .300-Magnum rifle or a 12-gauge shotgun with rifled slugs are appropriate
weapons if you have to shoot a bear. Heavy handguns such as a .44-Magnum may
be inadequate in emergency situations, especially in untrained hands.

People should pay particular attention to that statement. Any
time you see someone using a .44, or any other handgun, for bear
protection (with one exception which I'll explain farther down),
what you know is that they don't understand bears, but they do
like to show off.

State law allows a bear to be shot in self-defense if you did not provoke
the attack and if there is no alternative, but the hide and skull must be
salvaged and turned over to the authorities.

Defensive aerosol sprays which contain capsaicin (red pepper extract) have
been used with some success for protection against bears. These sprays may
be effective at a range of 6-8 yards. If discharged upwind or in a vehicle,
they can disable the user. Take appropriate precautions. If you carry a
spray can, keep it handy and know how to use it."

Which is to say... if you can be assured that all bears will
attack you running into the wind, then pepper spray is suitable.
Otherwise, not.

Note that there is one way to make bear protection with a pistol
work. This is quite handy and has many great side benefits, or
at least it potentially does depending on who you can get to go
traipsing around in bear country with you. You'll need to buy a
small .22 caliber pistol that is easy wear concealed in a manner
that allows easy access. You don't want *anyone* to know that
you have it.

Then you *only* go into bear country when you can implement the
"buddy system". Go with a buddy. And if a bear comes charging
out of the brush... pull out your .22, shoot your buddy in the
leg, and run like Hell.

That's the only way a pistol is going to save you, so why carry
around anything as heavy as a .44?

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)