How to file for practice appch at a military base?

Gray used to have a sergeant come up to safety meetings in Seattle and
solicit PARs so that they could stay current.

Bob Gardner

"John Clonts" wrote in message
...

"KP" wrote in message
...
Lee Elson wrote in message
. ..
Awhile back, I asked Mugu Approach about doing a PAR. They said it
wasn't possible. I think it was due to lack of staffing. This was on a
weekend but I wouldn't be surprised if they won't allow it during the
week either.

The first thing to go when it comes to staffing is PAR.

Weekends, holidays, mids, down days, and any other time the wing isn't
flying it's a pretty safe bet PAR won't be available. Hours should be
published.

Conversely, if the wing is flying there's very likely to be dual PAR
coverage (ie, staffing for two simultaneous PARs). Then if you get
turned
down it will be due to traffic or base policy.

Nothing ventured - nothing gained



I've done several PAR's at Gray Army Airfield (KGRK). Have never been
turned down.

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

Ok, but that's a different "Gray"

"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
...
Gray used to have a sergeant come up to safety meetings in Seattle and
solicit PARs so that they could stay current.

Bob Gardner

"John Clonts" wrote in message
...

"KP" wrote in message
...
Lee Elson wrote in message
. ..
Awhile back, I asked Mugu Approach about doing a PAR. They said it
wasn't possible. I think it was due to lack of staffing. This was on
a
weekend but I wouldn't be surprised if they won't allow it during the
week either.

The first thing to go when it comes to staffing is PAR.

Weekends, holidays, mids, down days, and any other time the wing isn't
flying it's a pretty safe bet PAR won't be available. Hours should be
published.

Conversely, if the wing is flying there's very likely to be dual PAR
coverage (ie, staffing for two simultaneous PARs). Then if you get
turned
down it will be due to traffic or base policy.

Nothing ventured - nothing gained



I've done several PAR's at Gray Army Airfield (KGRK). Have never been
turned down.

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

Why would comm failure be an emergency? If you follow the FARs both you
and ATC know what you should be doing all the way to your planned
destination. There should be no safety of flight issue so I think you
would have some explaining to do if you "diverted" to a military
airfield.

BTW I played phone tag today with some air operations officer, I'll try
him again tomorrow. I was surprised he even called me back, his
secretary wasn't too pleasant. "Well if there's nothing in it for us we
aren't gonna let you do a practice approach, but we'll see what the air
ops officer says."


"Bob Gardner" wrote in
:

You are going to get a clearance to the airport, no matter what you
file. Filing to an IAF is not necessary, IMHO. Comm failure is an
emergency situation, opening the door to doing whatever you want to do
under the PIC privilege.

Bob Gardner

"zatatime" wrote in message
...
On 7 Jul 2004 09:53:20 -0700, (Robert M. Gary)
wrote:

Whenever you are going to a semi-busy airport, don't worry about
filing all the way to the IAF, just to the general area. You'll
always get vectors anyway.


What do you when you get to the "general area" while experiencing a
comm failure?

Planning to the IAF gives you procedures to follow if this were to
happen and all parties involved will know what to expect.

z

Responding to a couple of different postings with a single reply, sorry...

Yossarian wrote:
Why would comm failure be an emergency? If you follow the FARs both you
and ATC know what you should be doing all the way to your planned
destination. There should be no safety of flight issue so I think you

You need to know what the FARs say so you can parrot it back for your oral exam.
However, there's a huge consensus that the best thing to do when you lose comm
and still have navigation capability is: get on the ground as quickly as
possible using any available nearby approach (assuming IMC, of course). I agree
with this consensus. You're free to decide for yourself.

would have some explaining to do if you "diverted" to a military
airfield.

I didn't hear anyone advocating diverting to a military airfield due to lost comm.


BTW I played phone tag today with some air operations officer, I'll try
him again tomorrow. I was surprised he even called me back, his
secretary wasn't too pleasant. "Well if there's nothing in it for us we
aren't gonna let you do a practice approach, but we'll see what the air
ops officer says."


"Bob Gardner" wrote in
:


You are going to get a clearance to the airport, no matter what you
file. Filing to an IAF is not necessary, IMHO. Comm failure is an
emergency situation, opening the door to doing whatever you want to do
under the PIC privilege.

Bob Gardner

"zatatime" wrote in message
. ..

On 7 Jul 2004 09:53:20 -0700, (Robert M. Gary)
wrote:


Whenever you are going to a semi-busy airport, don't worry about
filing all the way to the IAF, just to the general area. You'll
always get vectors anyway.


What do you when you get to the "general area" while experiencing a
comm failure?

Planning to the IAF gives you procedures to follow if this were to
happen and all parties involved will know what to expect.

Planning is fine, but in general -filing- doesn't do much for you. You fly the
route you are cleared for, not the one you filed. In general, clearances are to
the airport, at least in my part of the USA. You might as well just file to the
airport to begin with.

BTW I played phone tag today with some air operations officer, I'll try
him again tomorrow. I was surprised he even called me back, his
secretary wasn't too pleasant. "Well if there's nothing in it for us we
aren't gonna let you do a practice approach, but we'll see what the air
ops officer says."

Sounds like you are trying this the civilian way by trying to get all
the top brass to agree to this. The military way would be to just fly
down there and ask the controller. If the controller is bored he'll
probably do it. We do practice approaches into Beale AFB and Travis
AFB around here and I've never known anyone to call ahead of time.
Worst case, they say no. Are you trying for a PAR approach??

-Robert

zatatime wrote in message . ..
What do you when you get to the "general area" while experiencing a
comm failure?

Planning to the IAF gives you procedures to follow if this were to
happen and all parties involved will know what to expect.

In an actual comm failure you are required to follow your issued
clearance. Filing to the IAF will (in my experience) not ever result
in a clearance to go to the IAF. ATC just doesn't care what you filed
when it comes to getting you to the airport. The only time you are
allowed to fly what you've filed in a comm failure is if your
clearance issued doesn't send you all the way to your airport. In my
many years of flying IFR all over this country, I've only once not had
my clearance limit not be the airport I'm going to. So, in the case of
comm failure, you'd have to fly your assigned clearance anyway, not
what you've filed. Of course none of this makes any difference if its
not IMC all the way, if you find VMC, you just land in VMC.

-Robert

Robert M. Gary wrote:

If the controller is bored he'll
probably do it. We do practice approaches into Beale AFB and Travis
AFB around here and I've never known anyone to call ahead of time.

Don't controllers need to maintain currency on ASR/PAR approaches? I seem
to recall hearing this somewhere...

- Andrew

Don't do it. A PAR approach will not count as one of the three
required for your rating. Reason being - you're getting direction from
the controller. Saw a DE bust someone on a checkride for this
recently.

Yossarian wrote:

I'm planning my 250 nm XC for my instrument rating and would like to do a
PAR approach at Pt. Mugu naval airfield (NTD) in CA on my way back from San
Luis Obispo. How would I file that? I will be coming down V25, should I
expect the IAF to be VTU? Is there any way to indicate in the flight plan
that I would like a practice approach there on my way back to Hawthorne?
Perhaps "PRAC APPCH NTD" in the remarks section?

Robert M. Gary wrote:


Sounds like you are trying this the civilian way by trying to get all
the top brass to agree to this. The military way would be to just fly
down there and ask the controller. If the controller is bored he'll
probably do it. We do practice approaches into Beale AFB and Travis
AFB around here and I've never known anyone to call ahead of time.
Worst case, they say no. Are you trying for a PAR approach??

-Robert

You're right; most watch supervisors are not willing to commit for
practice approach approvals ahead of time, because they don't want to
create any potential delays for base assigned aircraft. On the other
hand, if you're in the area and ask, they'll get you in as long as the
traffic at the base isn't heavy.
Don't bother asking the "air ops officer" or "Chief, Air Traffic Control
Operations" or anybody else other than the controllers that are working
the facility. You can relay this request through the TRACON or Center.
Incidentally, military controllers frequently notify the TRACON that
they need practice approach aircraft for controller training purposes,
so they may be sitting there just waiting for you to call!


JPH

I was wondering about that! I thought they must be getting desperate if
they had to go to Seattle to solicit PAR approaches in TX!

JPH

John Clonts wrote:

Ok, but that's a different "Gray"

"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
...

Gray used to have a sergeant come up to safety meetings in Seattle and
solicit PARs so that they could stay current.

Bob Gardner

I've done several PAR's at Gray Army Airfield (KGRK). Have never been
turned down.

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ