For Keith Willshaw...

Ah yes the near total erase and change the subject approach, take 4.

The story so far,

1) the claims about the war warning message text, dropped after the
war warning text was actually posted. (the warnings are supposed to
make Pearl Harbor the only target)
2) the use of the character in the Pearl Harbor movie played by Dan
Aykroyd as a source of facts, dropped when it was revealed where
the name came from.
3) claims about the various investigations into the Pearl Harbor attack,
dropped when a list of such investigations was posted
4) attempts to promote the relatively recent congressional request to
promote General Short and Admiral Kimmel as proof of a conspiracy
are dropped, after the text of the resolution is posted.
5) claims about what Admiral Kimmel said are backed up by the URL
of the transcript of the congressional request meeting, Kimmel had
been dead for around 30 years before the meeting. The URL text
does not support pre knowledge of the attack and includes over
statements on Kimmels behalf (inventing 800 to 1,000 extra patrol
bombers available)
6) the claim the only investigation to clear Kimmel is the reliable one
despite the claim the findings and evidence have never been released.
Claim dropped again.
7) The claims the investigations were all rigged because it was one
entity investigating itself. Dropped since the claimed only investigation
to clear Kimmel was USN, the USN investigating the USN.
8) Hollywood is a US "premier quasi-governmental PSYOP organization."
Claim dropped.
9) The claim the US needed Pearl to be attacked, apparently the assaults
on Wake, Guam, Midway, the Philippines and US shipping were not enough.
Claim dropped.
10) The claim MacArthur received warnings Hawaii did not, claim dropped.
The same war warnings were sent to all commands in the Pacific.
11) the claim the "McCollum Memo" was a blueprint for US government
actions, dropped after the memo summary was posted, pointing out
what the memo actually said.
12) the claim McCollum was in charge of codebreaking dropped, his
memo header makes it clear he was in a different area.
13) If you write a book that says no conspiracy you are automatically
said to be pushing the official version, and such versions are claimed
to be wrong. No proof mind you. Claim dropped.
14) The conspiracy pushers cannot lie unless they receive official permission.
That was a good one.
15) There are still some USN intercept files still hidden, claim dropped.
16) The attempt to use Stinnett as a source appears to be dropped,
since the claims are so easy to prove wrong it seems. If you question
Stinnett directly he complains about spelling errors rather than reply.
17) The Lietwiler letter, claims dropped after the key text was posted.
18) Only in Washington are investigations rigged with hand picked
documents. Claim dropped.

Simple really, just keep dropping all the claimed evidence, but keep the
conclusion.

Most of my stuff is cut and paste, you become interested in WWII and
you find the same conspiracy claims surfacing over and over.

Denyav wrote in message ...
over the entire period 1940-41. They
cover the work of the entire unit known as OP-20-GY, the Navy cryptanalytic
office in Washington, and also report on the progress of the Navy
decryption units in Hawaii and Cavite. They show unambiguously that when

You spent lots of time and energy to post long usenet messages,which I
appreciate,but you most of the times forget a couple of words long small
details.

There is little energy involved, cut and paste takes care of most.

The fact the posts have to be deleted is the best proof they are
accurate. Also the fleeing forward to new claims, not defending
the old junk. It seems we are going to be treated to the tour of the
various conspiracy claims, which goes to prove what Denyav is
when he can quote a character in the Paral Harbor movie as a
source but also supply all the other conspiracy claims.

Lets start with famous hard (!)to break JN25 codes.

Since there are no sources for the following information can we assume
the nurse character in Pearl Harbor the movie is the source?

Presumably the British reporting the codes were hard to break is
also irrelevant?

1)They are not hard to break,they are actually 19th Century type codes that
somehow apperared in 20th century.

Note by the way there is no source for this claim, note the fact the
1930's are not that far into the 20th century. Radio and telegraph
communications forced the development of coding systems.

The code groups were disguised with random numbers, it forced
the US into using machines to break the code, to try and discover
the random numbers by comparing hundreds of messages. The
code breakers indicated this was a hard thing to do.

2)A very identical coding system was introduced in US in 1898 for
Navy and Army and and abondoned in 1917 because it was insecure.

So why didn't the US simply drag out the US code books and use
them? Perhaps because the systems were different? Please
describe the US systems, how they worked.

3)It has dictionary of 33,333 words and phrases each given as a five figure
number and these were added to random numbers contained in a 2nd code
book

Not quite, there were 33,333 valid code groups, in both the A and B
versions some were left blank for future expansion. In the B version
around 2/3 of the groups had a second meaning, giving around 55,000
valid meanings.

Random numbers were added to the code groups before transmission.

4)The dictionary was changed only once before Pearl Harbor on Dec 1,1940.
But random book was changed in every 3 to 6 months.

You forgot to mention the B version contained additional tables for
locations, date/time and positions, a super encypherment. These
tables were not broken out until mid 1942.

5)The Japanase blundered away the Code when they introduced
JN25B by continuing to use the random table books that have been
solved by the allies,for two more months.That was the equivalent of
reconstructing the exposed dictionary.US recovered the whole thing
immediately.

So now the lies begin. Firstly the failure to update the random number
book enabled the allies to confirm the basic system was still in place.
The valid code groups were 5 digit numbers divisible by 3. Secondly
the allies did not have all the valid random numbers, additives, used
to disguise the valid code groups, thirdly the Japanese did not put
out messages containing all 55,000 valid code group meanings in
the two months, December 1940 and January 1941.

As of Autumn 1940 the US had around 1,000 JN-25A code groups
it thought it knew the meanings for, work continued on the A version
until around March 1941, on 1 April 1941 there were 1,800 A
version groups "recovered", versus 300 B version groups. It should
be noted recoveries were not a linear process, new discoveries
could and did prove previously assigned meanings were wrong.

So if you know JB25B inroduction date,you also know when allies
cracked the code basically.

My cat has 4 legs and a tail my dog has 4 legs and a tail therefore
my dog is a cat. Simple sort of logic.

Put it to you thins way, you are given 30,000 5 digit random numbers,
which have 55,000 meanings. Solve instantly. Now solve when you
have less than 1/2 of the random numbers used to disguise the code
group values.

Now go work on this, if you know 10% of the random numbers and
10% of the code groups then, assuming randomness, around 1%
of the messages will contain code groups you know hidden by
random numbers you know.

To crack the code you needed to know the random numbers
and the code group values.

Just for the record,in 1994 NSA published that JN25B code was completely
cracked in December 1940.
They knew that many knew that and they finally admitted.

Yes folks this is the fun part of the lies.

“Early (Northern) Fall” 1940 the US code breakers realised the system
for numbers in JN-25A was the same as an old code the US has the
code book for, the code group was the number itself multiplied
by a constant. In a single day of checking the high frequency code
groups the code groups for the numbers 0 to 999 fell out, 1/30 of
the total code. Since all code these group values were divisible by
three it confirmed the tentative code group values previously
assigned were correct and told the code breakers valid code group
values were divisible by three.

After this discovery the task of further recoveries and exploiting
traffic was largely shifted to Corregidor, which for a time in 1940/41
was the largest USN code breaking unit, having completely absorbed
the Shanghai unit in December 1940. (SRH-179
notes that the personnel from Shanghai were transferred to Corregidor
in phases from August 1940 to December 1940. The last group of ten
men from Shanghai reported to Corregidor on 16 December 1940. Just
before that time the intercept and decryption efforts at Shanghai were
shut down.)

In effect Washington declared JN-25A “completely solved” and
“completely broken”, that is the system was understood and the
remaining work was in recovering and assigning meanings to code
groups, then exploiting the results. The result was most work was
directed at the earlier, now superseded versions, to try and recover
the underlying code groups, since there were many more messages
in those versions, the keys of the latest text additive book were also
targeted as intercepts built up. No attempt was made to read current
traffic.

See the different definitions being used? The USN used the definition
that it understood how the code system worked, it had cracked the
logic but it only had 1/30 of the code groups. The usual conspiracy
situation is to try and convince people what is being meant is 100%
recovery of code groups and random numbers.

6)In January 1941,US gave Britain two JN25B note books with keys

Ah yes, the US and UK combining recoveries is simply turned into
they had the entire code and additive books.

So here we go with another basic lie. One of the problems to sort out
in early 1941 was when the US and UK had different values for valid
random numbers and meanings for valid code groups.

7)Whole Pearl Harbor schema was based on this code.

You mean Yamamoto's letters to his staff were sent in JN-25B?
The couriered messages were in JN-25B?

This is really funny.

8)Between Sep1 and Pearl Harbor attack US intercepted total 26581
(acc.to NSA) JN25N coded messages.

Yes folks, apparently these messages were all about Pearl Harbor.

Deleted text,

"None of the messages found in the "Pre-Pearl Harbor Japanese Naval
Dispatches" file mention Pearl Harbor by name. (This file is found in
National Archives at College Park, RG 38, Crane Files, CNSG 5830/115; most
of the messages have also have been reprinted in "Pearl Harbor Revisited:
United States Navy Communications Intelligence, 1924-1941," an unclassified
monograph published by the National Security Agency in 1994.)"

The USN went back in 1945/46 and broke out as many of the pre war
messages as it could to see what they could have told. One of the
favourite tricks is to claim the 1946 dates are faked.

9)Churchill wrote "from the end of 1940 Americans had pierced vital
Japanase ciphers and were decoding large numbers of Japanase
MILITARY and diplomatic messages" GRAND ALLIANCE page 598

A more full version of the quote is,

"From the end of 1940 the Americans had pierced the
vital Japanese ciphers, and were decoding large
numbers of their military and diplomatic telegrams. In
the secret American circles these were referred to as
'Magics'. The 'Magics' were repeated to us, but there
was an inevitable delay - sometimes of two or three
days - before we got them. We did not know therefore
at any given moment all that the President or Mr. Hull
knew. I make no complaint of this."

This is a favourite quote of the conspiracy crowd, it is supposed
to be Churchill confessing the code breakings they want. Apparently
putting the boot into the recently deceased FDR and also himself.

The quote is above is on page 532 of the edition I have access to,
on page 535 comes the quote,

"A prodigious Congressional Inquiry published its findings in
1946 in which every detail was exposed of the events leading
up to the war between the United States and Japan and of
the failure to send positive "alert" orders through the military
departments to their fleets and garrisons in exposed situations.
Every detail, including the decoding of secret Japanese
telegrams and their actual texts, has been displayed to the
world in forty volumes. The strength of the United States was
sufficient to enable them to sustain this hard ordeal required
by the spirit of the American Constitution."

Simple really, fail to mention Churchill noted what the allies
had read they put into the public arena in 1946. Otherwise
the conspiracy requires Churchill to be alternatively the truth
bringer and telling lies.

And remember the IJN had more than 1 code in service, as
did the IJA, but just pretend Churchill's first quote has an
extra line with JN-25B in it.

Hard to break JN25B code is an urban legend created in Washington
D.C.to cover treason.

Translation telling lies about JN-25 is an attempt to cover someone's
inability to cope with reality.

tinnett simply ignores the IJN code book upgrade of December
1940 in order to make his book work. That is the blinding of
allied intelligence after making good progress into the initial code
book "A" (hence the classification

And you simply ignore that Japanase actually blundered away the
JN25B code when they continued to use random table books for two
more months after the introduction of JN25B.
It was one biggest blunders of WWII.

Change of subject time, it must not be admitted Stinnett tries to
pass off success against one code as success against another.

Yes folks, just ignore what the messages told the US were the
basic system was retained between A and B and gave the
US a start in figuring out the meanings of the high use code
groups. Together with the British they had 300 values assigned
to "B version" code groups by April 1941.

The reality was the more you knew about the code the more easily
you could figure out what was missing. Think about trying to guess
the meaning of a single word in a long sentence versus guessing a
long sentence from a single word.

No one can launch an unexpected attack on the US, it sees
and knows all, I must ask the US where my favourite pen has ende

Let me formulate differently,there were no intel gaps in 1941,there
were also no intel gaps in 2001.

If the attack occurred on Sunday in 1941 it must have occurred on
Sunday in 2001 correct? Furthermore the US intelligence operations
against the Japanese Navy in the 1940s is instantly the same as
success against a civilian operation two generations later.

Sort of summarises the situation quite well, the US wins an Olympic
event in 1936 it must also win the same event in 2000 and so on.

By the way in 1940 the Luftwaffe was sitting in Warsaw and Paris,
reading their enemy's files and discovering German intelligence
had been very accurate. Therefore the intelligence estimate for
Britain must be accurate as well. It turned out the estimate for
Britain had major errors, radar, production, tactics and so on.
Helped the British quite well.

Oh yes the 1941 US was defended by people using entirely propeller
driven aircraft, and hydrocarbon fuelled ships, the same must be true
today presumably.

If you know the capital of England you know the capital of Nigeria,
since they are both capitals. If you know the names of the states
in Germany you know the names of the states in the US, they are
all states. And so on.

Soccer is the same as Gridiron, they are both football.

By the way when was JN-25B used in 2001 and by whom?

"He who controls the past ,controls the future,he who controls the
present,controls the past" Orwell.

And people like Denyav are clearly going to spend a lot of time
rewriting the past to suit themselves as they cannot cope with
the present.

I think the quote from Orwell explains why some do not like idea of reopening
of Ft.Sumter,Maine and Pearl Harbor cases.

Translation, unable to come up with evidence, simply smear.

The rest is the text deleted from the non reply, apart from a little text
allowed to survive in the above text,

This is really funny Stinnett has no idea what the allies were reading, now
it seems it is 90%. A nice figure, the only trouble is the documents show
this to be about 90% too much. Oh yes, Stinnett would never use JN-25B
he demands people use AN (original US designation) or code book D
(IJN designation) or 5 numeral (another US designation), when you ask
him about the code later designated JN-25.

It would be nice for Stinnett to give something more than "in the archive"
as a reference for this claimed smoking gun document.

JN-25 was a book of 5 digit numbers standing for words, letters or
numbers. This book was introduced in mid 1939 "A" and substantially
upgraded in December 1940, "B". To disguise the code groups a
book of random numbers was used, the numbers were added to
the code group values. The random numbers were changed more
frequently, 5 times before the "B" book was introduced, then again
in February, August and December 1941.

Each time a book was introduced the allies had to go back to square
1, since they had to accumulate enough messages using the new
book of random numbers to figure out the random number sequences.

The 90% readable figure is a joke. Also note in 1945 when the USN
went back over the code books and the 1941 messages to see what
it could learn it was realised many of the previously used values were
in error, several hundred in around 35,000 recovered out of the 50,000
used. After the 1945 work the USN figured it had 48,000 out of the
50,000 random numbers.

The same thing happened for the version in use before Midway,
the 1945 work started with 47,000 values, initially found about 1,000
were wrong, and ultimately ended up with just over 48,000 out of the
50,000 random numbers.

One of the ways into the code was the fact the IJN did not use the
random number (additive) book correctly, too many messages
were sent using the first few pages of the book instead of spreading
use throughout the book. So around 60% of the messages used
around 20% of the additive book values.

Ah yes the Lietwiler letter, the refuge of last resort. For a start the
letter was not addressed to Safford. However I am amused by the
claim the routing designator is proof Safford saw it, after all the
routing designator on the McCollum memo proves only his boss
saw the famed memo, the memo did not go to FDR.

The idea Safford might understand what the letter means and so
knows it was not of relevance seems to be ignored.

The actual quote that has Stinnett very interested,

"We have stopped work on the period 1 February to 31 July as we have
all we can do to keep up with the current period. We are reading enough
current traffic to keep two translators very busy, i.e. with their code recovery
efforts etc. included"

Note what gets dropped from the conspiracy version, the fact the
translators were not translating documents full time. They had a range
of duties one of which was translating documents, another was assigning
meaning to code groups. Also note the current period is being implied
as 1 August 1941 onwards, after the additive change.

Given the code book had not changed going through the previous
additive book period was still a way to find new code groups.

Japanese is a very context sensitive language, one of the major
efforts of the translators was to take broken out code groups and
try and figure out the meaning of the groups, the code recovery work.

Think of it this way

11111 22222 33333 44444 11111 55555.

Now tell me the meaning.

How about

The 22222 33333 44444 the 55555.

We are reading 1/3 of the message folks.

Another clue.

The 22222 33333 on the 55555.

50% readable now, surely the text is obvious.

The cat 33333 on the 55555.

2/3 readable.

The cat sat on the 55555.

Think you can fill in the final word?

Of course the message "The cat 33333 on the 55555."
could be "The cat slept on the chair".

The translators did much more than translating decrypted documents.

Yes folks, Robert Stinnett wrote a book where he relied on the US
intercepting and decoding key IJN messages, then at the end of the
book he told us all he had no idea what the US decoding abilities
were. Just ignore the fact all through the book it is assumed the
needed messages were decoded as required. It does help him
when he ignores the change over from the A to the B version of JN-25
in late 1940, just assumed the success against the A version carried
over to the B version, which was a different code book.

Stinnett simply ignores the IJN code book upgrade of December
1940 in order to make his book work. That is the blinding of
allied intelligence after making good progress into the initial code
book "A" (hence the classification of the code in use in 1941 as
JN-25 "B") is simply ignored by Stinnett. When challenged about
this on his web site he simply failed to respond, except to complain
about spelling errors and insist on "correct terminology". Taking
Stinnett's word is a bad move.

If you want a fun exercise in fact checking try and find a Stinnett
footnote that actually backs up the claims in the text.

So change the subject, peddle Stinnett's fiction about Pearl then
peddle his fiction about US archives.

Also note below which section McCollum was in, not OP-20-GY
(codebreakers), the deleted claim was,

"The architect of FDRs Japan &Pearl Harbor game plan was McCollum
and McCollum was also,what a surprise !!,head of navy intelligence
unit responsible IJN dispatches."

This claim had to go, along with Pearl Harbor the movie as a source,
the British knew more than the US and so on.

I pinched the memo "highlights" from another post, note how the
memo is addressed to the directors, not someone in the white
house, yet it is supposed to make it to FDR in time for him to
make it the lunchtime conversation the next day, the "proof" FDR
saw the memo, just ignore the diary of the person FDR lunched with.

"Op-16-F-2 ONI (Office of Naval Intelligence) 7 October 1940
Memorandum For The Directors
Subject: ESTIMATE OF THE SITUATION IN THE PACIFIC AND RECOMMENDATIONS FOR ACTION OF THE UNITED STATES..."

A. Make an arrangement with Britain for the use of British
bases in the Pacific, particularly Singapore."

The USN did not use British bases until after the war started.
There was a conference in Manila about cooperation but it
ended with the sighting of the IJN invasion convoys heading
for Malaya. So this never happened pre war.

By the way the German Japanese naval base agreement
had been signed in 1940 or earlier.

"B. Make an arrangement with Holland for the use of base facilities
and acquisition of supplies in the Dutch East Indies" (now Indonesia)."

As for point A. Never happened pre war.

"C. Give all possible aid to the Chinese government of Chiang
Kai-shek."

30 aircraft in 1940, 141 in 1941, compared with 1,507 for the
British in 1940 and 5,249 in 1941. The USSR received more
aircraft than China, in fact the "other foreign" column has 787
aircraft delivered at the US factories. All possible aid would
have been a lot more aircraft for a start.

By the way the 30 aircraft for China in 1940 were trainers,
70 of the 1941 aircraft were trainers, 53 fighters, 18 light bombers.

So I presume the German sale of 12 aircraft to China in 1937
is an indicator Germany is giving all aid as well?

How about the German military advisors present on the Chinese
side in the late 1930s? I think they were withdrawn in 1939.

"D. Send a division of long-range heavy cruisers to the western
Pacific, the Philippines and Singapore."

Didn't happen, hint Manila is in the western pacific, it had a heavy
and a light cruiser plus the occasional extra cruiser passing through.

"E. Send two divisions of submarines to the western Pacific."

There were already USN submarines based in Manila, and the
memo's ideas of reinforcements was not followed. As a guide
to the changes note the USN had 96 submarines available, some
in reserve, in September 1939, the older boats were brought out
of reserve after war began in Europe and the total number
available grew steadily to 112 by the end of November 1941.

By the way USN submarine deployments to Manila from
DANFS, according to my by hand counts.

11/24 (yes 24) onward S-36, S-37, S-38, S-39, S-40, S-41

7/1925 to 5/1932 S-30, S-31, S-32, S-33, S-34, S-35

So until the depression the USN had 12 submarines present.

12/39 onward Porpoise, Pike, Tarpon, Perch, Pickerel, Permit

So the 12 submarine force is restored.

1939 Searaven "two years before war" my bet it should be with the
5 following submarines to make another 6 ship squadron and
arrived at the end of 1940.

1940 Seawolf (autumn)

10 or 11/40 Stingray, Seadragon, Sealion
12/40 Shark

1941 month unknown Snapper (probably 11/41), Sailfish (after 3/41
at least since that was the month it started a refit in the US)

11/41 Salmon, Seal, Sturgeon, Sargo, Saury, Spearfish, Sculpin,
Swordfish, Skipjack

Total 29, the force at the start of the war, I think 4 were
refitting on 8 December.

"F. Keep the main strength of the U.S. fleet, now in the Pacific, in
the vicinity of the Hawaiian Islands."

Done before the memo was written, the memo is dated in October,
the basing decision was on 1 May 1940.

"G. Insist that the Dutch refuse to grant Japanese demands for
undue economic concessions, Particularly oil."

Add the British as well, it made no sense for the US to
embargo oil if the Dutch and British would replace the
lost sales. The US did not need to do much to persuade
the Dutch, the Japanese idea of terms of trade did much
to persuade the Dutch extra trade was not worth it.

"H. Completely embargo all trade with Japan, in collaboration
with a similar embargo imposed by the British Empire."

Finally happened, however the memo forgets to add the Dutch
to the embargo.

FDR had imposed trade embargoes on aviation fuel, lubricants
and high grade scrap metal on 25 July 1940. On 26 September
scrap iron was added to the list.

In the first week in October, that is just before the memo was written
the US ordered all Americans out of the far east, called up the naval
reserve and authorised Anglo-American staff talks in Singapore.
Additional supplies were sent to the Philippines as well.

Remember folks, the memo is supposed to be the blueprint, apparently
able to influence decisions before it was written.

The Japanese negotiations with the Dutch over oil finally ended in the
first week in October, with no gains for the Japanese.

"10. If by these means Japan could be led to commit an overt act
of war, so much the better. At all event we must be fully
prepared to accept the treat of war."

Yes, Japan preferred war to giving up the chance to colonise China.

So 8 recommendations, the first 4 were not followed, the fifth was not
followed at the time, though more submarines were sent and then even
more in late 1941, the sixth and seventh had already happened before
the memo was written, the eighth finally happened around 9 months
later and only after further Japanese expansion.

Just remember the memo is the claimed blueprint for US government
policy.

Yes folks, just try and change the subject, the IJN says it did not
transmit, in logs written at the time, in the wartime after action
report and during the post war interrogations. This has to be
ignored. The idea Yamamoto was so stupid as to park his
top secret task force in a place where there was only radio
communications has to be ignored.

Just ignore the way traffic analysis works, the use of call signs
on messages to gain an idea what is going on, the volume and
size of messages. Then add direction finding on transmitters.

No folks, the IJN is assumed to be completely ignorant of any
sort of radio discipline or deception techniques.

The conspiracy needs the IJN in on the act from1941 on.

Navies are well aware of the need to limit radio traffic, they try to
do it as much as possible, the IJN understood the reasons why and
acted accordingly.

It is amusing to see the idea couriers are less secure than radio
transmissions, presumably why no one uses couriers any more.

As Professor Kimball wrote: "It seems to me that to brand WSC
and/or FDR as conspirators requires that they be seen as evil
geniuses. But for them to allow the U.S. Fleet to be clobbered
means they were stupid. That doesn't compute." "

The rest of the post is simply text that could not be replied to,

By the way folks, the conspiracy claims are dropped, instead we
have something totally different dropped in.

Deleted text,

"You forgot item 4) the conspiracy theory around the start of the war
and the claims the Maine was deliberately sabotaged by the US.
The non real event.

You see the fact the IJN attacked Pearl Harbor in 1941 is known
and understood. The added "facts" of a conspiracy are the
contributions of people who cannot cope with reality. "

Translation do not deal with the issues on their merits, invent crimes
from years ago and use those as an excuse to do what you want to
do, above all do not think.

I note the fun things like the URL for the congressional petition transcript
makes note of the Japanese consulate's words about a surprise attack
being possible, a message not broken out before the attack, to accuse
Washington of short changing the field commanders.

If the assessment is a surprise attack was possible what does that say
of two things,

1) the size of the defences
2) the alertness of the defences.

1) Is largely Washington determined, 2) is locally determined. But do
not worry, erase item 2 and carry on with the field commanders did
nothing wrong line.

Yes folks, understand, look for your facts in Hollywood movies, just
add the words you want to historical documents and so on. It is
quite simple, since unwelcome reality can be wished away just
decide the preferred outcome and adjust the preferred facts
accordingly.

Denyav is a CIA/FBI/ABC/CBS/DKNY/USN/USAAF, oh what the
heck, AAA (many organisations deleted) to ZZZZZ plant. Here to
try and improve the reputation of the US by making absolutely
absurd claims about it, so no one believes the real claims.

By the way note below the talk is all about the missing evidence,
but we are told 99.99% is available.

Deleted text, on the Congressional moves,

"
http://www.congress.gov/cgi-bin/cpqu...el=TOC_545749&

Go look up the other items included, the Indianapolis sinking and
the waiver on time limits for decorations. "

http://www.ukans.edu/carrie/docs/texts/kimmel.htm

By the way the claim trying to be defended is the idea Kimmel hurled
such accusations at FDR etc. Instead we have the family members
putting the best case forward as to why Washington deserves some
of the blame.

The transcript indicates the accusations were the usual ones, the
people in Washington made the errors (not the conspiracy) and
the people in Pearl paid the price. Note the transcript is not about
prior knowledge of the attack, only the blame game afterwards.
However when you want to invent fiction just change this to
conspiracy accusations.

By the way in the above text Professor Gannon claims 1,000 PBY
patrol planes were sent to the British pre Pearl Harbor when he
calculates Pearl needed 200 for all round patrols but only had 49.
The British (meaning RAF, RCAF. RNZAF and RAAF) received
somewhere around 3/4 of this figure for the entire war.

The US produced a whole 410 Patrol bombers in 1941, up from
34 in 1940, 22 Martin Mariners (PBM), 6 Consolidated Coranados
(PB2Y) and 416 Catalinas (PBY) 1940 to 1941. The PBY had been
in production pre war, with around 200 delivered by the end of 1939.

Of course you need to remove from the totals the 41 patrol bombers
delivered in December 1941 and probably the 54 delivered in October
and November 1941 as not being available to sent to Hawaii in time.
Also noting the pre war deliveries, starting in 1936, were lower powered
versions, 1,800 to 2,000 HP versus 2,400 for the 1940 on versions

So we have around 600 patrol bombers with the necessary range built
and available to the USN and everyone else, less the attrition of normal
flying, 200 of which are needed for Pearl Harbor. Presumably then over
200 are needed for the Philippines, then comes the U-boat threat to the
US east coast plus Panama then comes the British requirement. The
British are useful, they give feedback on actual combat operations. Do
not forget aircraft for training operations as well plus the inevitable losses.

Kimmel is allowed "lack of resources" but Washington is not. Nice use
of logic.

So what's that say 600 aircraft, less around 1/2 for obsolete types, for
training and attrition, and we have 300 suitable aircraft. Pearl wants
200, the Philippines wants more, the east coast wants some, the
British want some, the training system wants more so it can up the
training rate and so on.

Pearl Harbor was given 49 aircraft, enough to continuously cover an
arc of 90 degrees according to Professor Gannon, or the approaches
from the Japanese mandated islands. How many were actually flying
such searches on the 5th, 6th and 7th?

Gone looking for this evidence? Just jump to conspiracy theory, instead
of something like they decided it looked like the Navy was being kind to
its own.

Deleted text,

"Putting words into Kimmel's mouth now I see. Kimmel's defence was
that he was deprived of information he needed, mainly messages from
the local Japanese consulate and timely warning of the time the last
Japanese message was supposed to be presented to the US. There
was nothing said about senior leaders wanting the attack to happen."

On claims the inquiries were rigged,

"I like this, if the one entity argument is followed then the claimed let
off for Kimmel is the rigged result, it was an all Navy affair."

Ah yes the movie Pearl Harbor is your guide to US intelligence
actions in 1941, but wait, there is more, since the movie is a joke
on this point the need is to imply the British did it. Just ignore the
way the British had more pressing matters on their hands, that
the US was leading the way against Japanese diplomatic traffic
and the British and US were sharing IJN code recovery work.
So what one knew the other did as well.

Yes folks, Kimmel was where he should be, no matter where you
go, there you are.

Note by the way the attempt to paint the inquiry as the absolutely right
result, despite claiming not to have seen the evidence presented to it.
The USN is the straight organisation, despite the fact it would have
been doing the decoding of those wonder messages, it is the one
that holds the "truth", everything else is wrong. The conspiracy does
not apply to the naval inquiry, it could never have been rigged of
course, it has the "right" result, so everything else was rigged.

What did the inquiry clear Kimmel of, dereliction of duty, lack of
judgement?

Standard conspiracy stuff, the right answer is out there, somewhere,
pick your preferred outcome.

Previously before the next text was another standard claim about
conspiracies, as usual the claim has to be deleted and the subject changed.

I like this, especially since I posted text showing how the War Warning
messages were the same around the Pacific. And MacArthur certainly
did not lose more men and equipment that the people in Hawaii in the
opening day of the war.

What I really like is the duck, unable to answer the text, so change the
subject.

"By the way the above logic implies the Japanese could have invaded
the Philippines, Wake and Guam, killing and capturing Americans and
the US would have allowed this. The US did not need Pearl Harbor to
enter the Pacific war. The IJN started sinking US merchant ships just
before the attack went in."

Try and read history, it provides answers like, 1) too far away to know
exactly what was going on, 2) MacArthur controlling much of the
information flow, 3) The low expectations about holding the Philippines,
4) The reality moving against MacArthur would provoke a reaction in
Washington, being seen as an attempt by FDR to rid himself of an
unwanted General.

Deleted text,

It would be nice to know the source of the claimed Kimmel words, it
seems his lifetime's output is being searched for any claim he made,
no proof offered.

Remarkable line being run, the US is the source of all evil but the US
is so good, so amazing, it cannot be defeated, only betrayed from
within. No one can launch an unexpected attack on the US, it sees
and knows all, I must ask the US where my favourite pen has ended up.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 17:20:26 +1000, "Geoffrey Sinclair"
wrote:

Ah yes the near total erase and change the subject approach, take 4.


Killfile the equivocating loon, its easier.


greg

--
"vying with Platt for the largest gap
between capability and self perception"

From: Tank Fixer
Date: 6/21/2004 10:55 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id: t

In article ,
on 21 Jun 2004 06:29:18 GMT,
B2431 attempted to say .....

From: Tank Fixer
Date: 6/20/2004 10:40 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id: t

In article ,
on 20 Jun 2004 05:29:07 GMT,
B2431 attempted to say .....

From: Tank Fixer


In article ,
on 15 Jun 2004 05:33:03 GMT,
Denyav attempted to say .....



A fire in a coal bunker adjacent to one of the powder magazines.

Exact cause of explosion is still not known,offical 1898 version was
a
spanish
mine !.

The exact cause may never be know. I am aware of the original official
version.

One thing is sure it was no accident and Spanians had nothing to do
with
it.
Maybe Aliens masquarading as Spanians did it.

Now did you intend to contradict yourself ? Most naval experts consider
it

to have been a coal bunker fire next to a powder magazine.

In fact the boat WAS raised and inspected before being resunk at sea.
There
is
footage of the boat as it sank.

Sometime in the 1920's IIRC ?


It was done in 1912.


Thanks, i had three numbers of the date right anyway.
Do you know of any reports published of the investigation findings ?


This is what the Navy has posted.

http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq71-1.htm

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Ah yes the near total erase and change the subject approach, take 4.

I love your tactic,by posting long messages you are trying to hide the facts,i
have not much time to that but lets try play by your own rules

11) the claims about the war warning message text, dropped after the
war warning text was actually posted. (the warnings are supposed to
make Pearl Harbor the only target)

What the text of war warning message?
You correctly stated in your message dated 6/9 so I dont want to repeat it.

Which locations were warned with the famed message?
Philippines,Thai,BorneoKra,maybe Guam and Samoa !!!!
Please care to find distances between these locations and Hawaii.
Your so called war warning message is actually known as "Do Nothing" message
for Pearl Harbor.
Now comes even more interesting part of story.
When Washington issued so called War Warning or "Pearl Harbor Do Nothing"
message?
Nov 26,1941

Now hold tight,when US,British and Dutch intercepted decoded Yamamato's JN25b
coded message to First Air Fleet?
US and Brits decoded this message immediately (Dutch a little bit later on
Nov.27)
So,the first time allies had an official japanese document at hand,not Peruvian
minister,not a Korean,not a british double agent etc,but directly from the top
brain of IJN declaring Pearl Harbor as the target.
Date of Yamamato message?
Nov.25,1941
Date of of so called Warning or "Pearl Harbor Do Nothing" message?
Nov.26,1941

So as soon as you officially learn that Japanase were going to attack Pearl
Harbor you prepare a War Warning gor the locations far away from Pearl Harbor
but you do not even mention the name of the real Target in the message.

Its eqivalent of receiving a definite terrorist attack intelligence for NYC but
issuing terror alerts for Sydney,Athens,Delhi and Rio DeJaneiro but not NYC.

I think Washingtons motives were very clear
1)To make sure that Japanase Intelligence that US is not aware of Japanese
intentions.
2)To prevent Pearl Harbor to take steps that might deter Japanase from making
the attack.
3)To save their own asses.

BTW Let me remind you again JN25b code was actually broken by US when they
first intoduced that code.
How?
I explained it in my previous post.

2) the use of the character in the Pearl Harbor movie played by Dan
Aykroyd as a source of facts, dropped when it was revealed where
the name came from.

4) attempts to promote the relatively recent congressional request to
promote General Short and Admiral Kimmel as proof of a conspiracy
are dropped, after the text of the resolution is posted.

Then you must read the words of Navy Lawyer Konigman again'
"....historical record does not establish convincincly that President
Poosevelt,General Marshall or others in Washington "DELIBERATELY" withheld
information from Adm.Kimmel or Gen.Short as part of a plan or conspiracy to
expose Pearl Harbor to attack in order to thrust into war"

Thas the last line of defense of a Gov't employee trying to save Gov't from
much more grave charges,namely treason.


Let me remind you again JN25B code was broken immediately after its
inroduction.

7) The claims the investigations were all rigged because it was one
entity investigating itself. Dropped since the claimed only investigation
to clear Kimmel was USN, the USN investigating the USN.

That was only time Kimmel was given the opportunity to defend himself and
present his own case and findings.
This panel exonarated him as we all know.

) Hollywood is a US "premier quasi-governmental PSYOP organization."
Claim dropped.

Who dropped the claim you maybe?
You are pretty smart,who remembers original posts?
Hollywood was and is nations premier PSYOP organization.
Check out "Who paid the Piper?"
Heck I wrote the exactly same things in original posts.

1) the claim the "McCollum Memo" was a blueprint for US government
actions, dropped after the memo summary was posted, pointing out
what the memo actually said.

You are hallucinating,McCollum and its memo are the key of Japan policy I
always maintained that.
Besides you have lied about the date of famed McCollum memo,the date of the
Memo is Oct.7,1940 so long before Pearl Harbor.

"Denyav" wrote in message
...
There are plenty of potential reasons for classifying Docs, you just
focus
on the least credible one. because you are insane.


"He who controls past,controls future,he who controls present,controls to
past"

That might be one of the potential reasons?

No.

You can only classify documents, not historical knowledge.

Keep grabbing at straws to support your lunatic conclusions.


Quite a few elected reps do know, they are the ones on the appropriate
committees, the rest are not supposed to know.

Yes,quite a few.
Again our unelected masters in gov't decide who those "quite a few"
will be

No they don't, perhaps you should look at how those committees are raised.




It doesn't make your point, it just shows that you lack one.

You do not understand the sign of the times at all.
Thanks to our unelected "Masters" in gov't,surely you are not one of
them,worlwide the words "Dumb American" replaced Vietnam era words "Ugly
American".

Looks to me like you are trying to change tack.

Fact. you are a loon, you have been shown to be a loon.

My work here is done.

You can only classify documents, not historical knowledge.


Nobody classifies documents to save reputations of historical figures.
Documents are only classified if they are relevant for current (and future)
events.

No they don't, perhaps you should look at how those committees are raised.

Where else the "oversighted" are allowed to select their "oversighters" ?
Looks to me like you are trying to change tack.

Fact. you are a loon, you have been shown to be a loon.

My work here is done.


I guess your superiors do not like that such issues appear in public forums.You
are not even a loon,you are a compensated spin doctor.

"He who controls past,controls future,he who controls presents,controls the
past".