My first big IFR mistake...

Anyone have any good NDB approach tips and tricks?

If you don't have MS Flight Simulator or something similar, try Tim's Air
Navigation Simulator:

http://www.vrotate.com/VOR/vor.html

It doesn't simulate the airplane control part, but you can set the positions
of two navaids (VOR or NDB), and the wind, and see how the needles move as you
navigate and track different courses.

Barry

ask your instructor what approaches the examiner will probably have you do.
He should have a good idea about what the examiner will do if he has worked
with him for awhile.


Ben Jackson wrote:

I made my first big IFR mistake. I fixed my intermittant ADF with only
a few more hours of training to go until my checkride. My glorious plan
to label it INOP (making it an expensive combination multi-channel timer
and partial panel heading memory aid) has been thwarted by a little tuner
cleaner on the card edge connector and the socket on the tray. A small
part of me was hoping that the aluminum swarf that someone rained down
on it while modifying the panel (which I removed a while ago without
fully fixing the problem) had killed it for good.

Anyone have any good NDB approach tips and tricks?

--
Ben Jackson

http://www.ben.com/

Wow! I can't believe all the posts recommending ways of disabling the ADF!
Dumbing down the test so that you can pass it is not a good idea and that
philosophy is not going to make anyone good at anything. I like the idea of
using a flightsim to practice.

Mike
MU-2

"Ben Jackson" wrote in message
news:LgYZb.380119$na.569603@attbi_s04...
I made my first big IFR mistake. I fixed my intermittant ADF with only
a few more hours of training to go until my checkride. My glorious plan
to label it INOP (making it an expensive combination multi-channel timer
and partial panel heading memory aid) has been thwarted by a little tuner
cleaner on the card edge connector and the socket on the tray. A small
part of me was hoping that the aluminum swarf that someone rained down
on it while modifying the panel (which I removed a while ago without
fully fixing the problem) had killed it for good.

Anyone have any good NDB approach tips and tricks?

--
Ben Jackson

http://www.ben.com/

Michael 182 wrote:
Yeah - yank it out of the plane for the checkride.

Allow me to relate a cautionary tale from my instrument checkride. I actually
planned on doing NDB approaches. I was trained in them and proficient.
Unfortunately, my ADF died the morning of the checkride. No problem, said the
avionics tech, I've got another one of the same model that will just slide in.
OK, the substitute ADF worked fine.

The problem was, the substitute ADF apparently had some very different magnetic
properties from the regular one, which caused the mag compass to be -way- off.

My advice: if you're thinking of "yanking" it, just find a way to disable it in
place instead.

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.


Michael


"Ben Jackson" wrote in message
news:LgYZb.380119$na.569603@attbi_s04...

I made my first big IFR mistake. I fixed my intermittant ADF with only
a few more hours of training to go until my checkride. My glorious plan
to label it INOP (making it an expensive combination multi-channel timer
and partial panel heading memory aid) has been thwarted by a little tuner
cleaner on the card edge connector and the socket on the tray. A small
part of me was hoping that the aluminum swarf that someone rained down
on it while modifying the panel (which I removed a while ago without
fully fixing the problem) had killed it for good.

Anyone have any good NDB approach tips and tricks?

--
Ben Jackson

http://www.ben.com/





--
Dave Butler, software engineer 919-392-4367

I understand the reservations of those who find the reliability of
these things to be less than perfect. But it is a tool and it can be
used, just like ded reckoning. Don't ignore it if you have one.

I had to do a partial panel NDB approach on my check ride (nearly ten
years ago). It wasn't pretty, but I passed. I suppose had I been
taking this exam in an earlier technological day and age, I'd be
extolling the virtues of AN radio ranges. However, I wouldn't doubt
that some day, someone will decry partial panel VOR approaches as
something they would never use.

And despite the existence of an approach certified GPS on our
airplane, I still check my fixes against the ADF when the opportunity
presents itself. Never become too reliant on any one piece of
equipment if you can help it.


Jake Brodsky,
PP ASEL IA, Cessna Cardinal N30946, Based @ FME
Amateur Radio Station AB3A

Ok, full disclosu I'm still an IR student; probably a week or two
from my checkride.

However, I've been flying a lot of NDB approaches with my instructor
and a few things come to mind:

1. when the deflection of the needle is equal to your correction,
you're on course. I believe that this is the only rule you
need to remember!

So, you're flying to the ndb:
- you're heading is equal to your course, and the needle
points up: you're on course
- you're heading is 20 degrees to the right of the course
you want to be on and the needle is 20 degrees to the
left: you're on course.

If you're flying away from the ndb, the rule is the same,
except that the direction of your correction and the deflection
of the needle are in the same direction. This was a little
confusing to me since when you notice you're off course and
turn to correct, the deflection will get worse at first, not
better.

So, you're flying away from the ndb:
- the tail of the needle points 20 degrees to the
right. You turn to correct, say, 30 degrees to
the left. Now the needle say 50 degrees off. Wait.
When it goes back to 30 (the amount of your correction)
you're back on the course. (you'll probably want to
reduce your correction now, as it will continue to
slide you over to the other side if you keep it in)

2. if you get confused, turn your heading to the desired course
and see where the needle is

3. think of an ndb approach as a dead reckoning approach, and
just think of the adf as a way of getting some insight into
the wind direction.

Heck, if the ndb is off the airport but only a few miles away,
just fly to the ndb (try not to "home", but don't sweat it
if you do a bit) Then, just fly an outbound heading from the
ndb that you think will get you the right courseline (or if
you're really overloaded, just fly the same heading as the
course you want), and wait for the clock to time out!

Unless you are seriously unlucky, you'll be somewhere near
the airport and the DE will have no idea that you didn't
know what you were doing.

4. As others have said, make sure your DG is correct before you
start the approach.


Dave

--


"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message link.net...
Wow! I can't believe all the posts recommending ways of disabling the ADF!
Dumbing down the test so that you can pass it is not a good idea and that
philosophy is not going to make anyone good at anything. I like the idea of
using a flightsim to practice.

Mike
MU-2

"Ben Jackson" wrote in message
news:LgYZb.380119$na.569603@attbi_s04...
I made my first big IFR mistake. I fixed my intermittant ADF with only
a few more hours of training to go until my checkride. My glorious plan
to label it INOP (making it an expensive combination multi-channel timer
and partial panel heading memory aid) has been thwarted by a little tuner
cleaner on the card edge connector and the socket on the tray. A small
part of me was hoping that the aluminum swarf that someone rained down
on it while modifying the panel (which I removed a while ago without
fully fixing the problem) had killed it for good.

Anyone have any good NDB approach tips and tricks?

--
Ben Jackson

http://www.ben.com/

In article . net,
Mike Rapoport wrote:
Wow! I can't believe all the posts recommending ways of disabling the ADF!
Dumbing down the test so that you can pass it is not a good idea and that
philosophy is not going to make anyone good at anything. I like the idea of
using a flightsim to practice.

Oh, I'm not going to disable it. I have practiced NDB approaches before
in the simulator. After fixing the ADF right before picking up my
instructor I managed to fly a passable NDB approach.

I was actually sort of concerned that so many VOR/ILS approaches require
DME around here that if my DME (probably the most advanced bit of nav
equipment in the plane!) failed my options would be really limited if I
didn't have a working ADF.

--
Ben Jackson

http://www.ben.com/

"Mike Rapoport" wrote
Wow! I can't believe all the posts recommending ways of disabling the ADF!

Why not? Once you buy into the idea that an instrument rating isn't
actually very useful in the sort of airplane he will be flying, and is
just a piece of paper to get, it makes all the sense in the world.
Disabling the ADF makes the piece of paper easier to get.

Dumbing down the test so that you can pass it is not a good idea and that
philosophy is not going to make anyone good at anything.

Except passing tests.

I like the idea of using a flightsim to practice.

I do too, especially since you can (a) stop the action to think while
you're coming up to speed and (b) get a track showing what you did
immediately afterwards.

I also think that NDB approaches are the second-best exercise in
situational awareness available - NDB holds are the first. Once
situational awareness is mastered, it actually takes very little time
to learn NDB approaches. Thus my advice is this - focus on knowing
where on the approach plate you are, every minute. Know where the
wind is coming from. It's perfectly legitimate to draw a wind arrow
on the approach plate once you figure out the wind, and it can make
visualizing your correction easier. Remember, the procedure turn is
not cast in stone. You can go more than a minute outbound before
turning 180, and if there's a stiff headwind from that direction you
probably should. How many degrees you should lead your turn onto the
FAC becomes obvious when you keep wind and distance from the beacon in
mind. Keep in mind that heading, bearing (absolute and relative),
course, and track are all different things. Know the differences.

Once you get to that point, you won't need the rules, the mnemonics,
the tricks, or any of the rest of that garbage. The corrections will
become intuitive.

Thus I have a suggestion about the best way to use flight sim. If you
are not sure what the needle is telling you or how to correct, DON'T
GUESS. Stop the action and figure it out, then start again. You will
find that with time, you will not need to stop anymore. At that
point, start doing them in the plane. I think you will discover that
a couple of hours is all it will take to become proficient.

Michael

Wow - I finally read something worth reading on this newsgroup. Thanks
Michael. (And for once I am not being facetious!)

I don't have an adf in my plane - I wish I did. I have just two VOR
receivers. An ADF would get me into a bunch of other places and it is nice
to have the extra functionality. (especially like LOMs)

"Grumman 123, LOM inbound"
"huh?"

"Michael" wrote in message
om...
"Mike Rapoport" wrote
Wow! I can't believe all the posts recommending ways of disabling the
ADF!

Why not? Once you buy into the idea that an instrument rating isn't
actually very useful in the sort of airplane he will be flying, and is
just a piece of paper to get, it makes all the sense in the world.
Disabling the ADF makes the piece of paper easier to get.

Dumbing down the test so that you can pass it is not a good idea and
that
philosophy is not going to make anyone good at anything.

Except passing tests.

I like the idea of using a flightsim to practice.

I do too, especially since you can (a) stop the action to think while
you're coming up to speed and (b) get a track showing what you did
immediately afterwards.

I also think that NDB approaches are the second-best exercise in
situational awareness available - NDB holds are the first. Once
situational awareness is mastered, it actually takes very little time
to learn NDB approaches. Thus my advice is this - focus on knowing
where on the approach plate you are, every minute. Know where the
wind is coming from. It's perfectly legitimate to draw a wind arrow
on the approach plate once you figure out the wind, and it can make
visualizing your correction easier. Remember, the procedure turn is
not cast in stone. You can go more than a minute outbound before
turning 180, and if there's a stiff headwind from that direction you
probably should. How many degrees you should lead your turn onto the
FAC becomes obvious when you keep wind and distance from the beacon in
mind. Keep in mind that heading, bearing (absolute and relative),
course, and track are all different things. Know the differences.

Once you get to that point, you won't need the rules, the mnemonics,
the tricks, or any of the rest of that garbage. The corrections will
become intuitive.

Thus I have a suggestion about the best way to use flight sim. If you
are not sure what the needle is telling you or how to correct, DON'T
GUESS. Stop the action and figure it out, then start again. You will
find that with time, you will not need to stop anymore. At that
point, start doing them in the plane. I think you will discover that
a couple of hours is all it will take to become proficient.

Michael

I recognize that you didn't suggest disabling the ADF, after all you are the
one who fixed it. I am a little surprised at the attitude expressed by
others though. If flying an NDB approach is beyond ones capibility, then
flying real IMC is pretty risky business and might end badly. Good luck on
the checkride.

Mike
MU-2

"Ben Jackson" wrote in message
news:Gut_b.45054$Xp.200275@attbi_s54...
In article . net,
Mike Rapoport wrote:
Wow! I can't believe all the posts recommending ways of disabling the
ADF!
Dumbing down the test so that you can pass it is not a good idea and that
philosophy is not going to make anyone good at anything. I like the idea
of
using a flightsim to practice.

Oh, I'm not going to disable it. I have practiced NDB approaches before
in the simulator. After fixing the ADF right before picking up my
instructor I managed to fly a passable NDB approach.

I was actually sort of concerned that so many VOR/ILS approaches require
DME around here that if my DME (probably the most advanced bit of nav
equipment in the plane!) failed my options would be really limited if I
didn't have a working ADF.

--
Ben Jackson

http://www.ben.com/